Weiss DAC501 Streamer and DAC Review

[amirm]

Note added to review post regarding driver issue and linearity.

 

[CleanSound]

OK, here is where we stand on the linearity issue after spending last evening on it.

I noticed that if I changed the amount of buffering for the ASIO driver, the nature of the bug changes. Oddly, lowering the buffer size down to 128 bytes (default in AP is 512), caused it to almost run reliably. Conversely, changing the buffer to 2048 made it much, much worse. It seems that data is being lost but why smaller buffers make that better, I don't know. To confirm this is a USB driver issue, I ran the test using Toslink. That worked perfectly:
View attachment 317137

This would explain why they company did not see the error. They are using older generation Audio Precision analyzer which does not support USB interface. So they did their testing with Toslink/Coax and didn't see it. I have suggested that they borrow a current generation AP to replicate the error. And I have offered to give them the project file to do so.

As far as I can tell, this will impact anyone using the product over USB. So I hope the company fixes the bug and that it is only a firmware/driver issue.

FYI Daniel is complaining that I should have done the above investigation prior to publication of the review. I explained to him that some 450 DACs have passed this test and only one other one showed linearity bug (that was a 20 to 24 bit conversion issue which was fixed with new firmware). And that debugging products is outside of the scope of a review. I will be shipping the product to its owner shortly.

No only debugging issues is outside the scope of your work, it's not your damm job; is Weiss paying you a salary or a fee to debug their garbage product?

Neither is it your job to ensure that the manufacturer invests in up-to-date industrial precision tools instead of investing in hot air to sell a product at $10k. Nor is engineering a good product your job, nor performing up to snuff QA/QC your job.

It is an embarrassment for Weiss that consumers learn that Weiss got upset at YOU for THEIR inadequacy and incompetence; all the while charging $10k for a mediocre product that can't even compete with a $200 SMSL or Topping DAC.

It only takes the sale of 5-7 of these over price DACs to buy an up-to-date AP. They chose not to, and now they are upset at you? WTF?!?

Ridiculousness, no damn accountability and an entitled mentality.

 

[BDWoody]

FYI Daniel is complaining that I should have done the above investigation prior to publication of the review.

People deal with embarrassment in various ways don't they?

Poor fella... maybe he should pay more attention next time, and show more respect for the people who believe his story enough to pony up that kind of money. Don't have the right tools? Get them.

For a $10,000 box to have such a poor showing isn't really surprising anymore, but it is disappointing.

 

[MacClintock]

For USD $1299 (to my door) the SHD comes with the UMIK1, and full fledged Dirac… not sure where the $1600 number comes from.

The Flex doesn’t have streaming nor true 2-way Dirac processing (meaning Dirac Bass Control and Active Room Treatment are totally out of the picture) even under future updates.

Not saying the flex is a bad product, I have one, but that the SHD is the clear best competitor to this.

USD$ 1299 is the price from miniDSP direct, which is a company based in China/Honkong. How do you not have to pay import taxes?

 

[MacClintock]

For those of us who work(ed) in the automotive fields; the car analogies are quite useful.

The philosophy behind what this forum stands for and the Motorsports science circles are remarkably similar.

Why would you purchase a $300,000++ sports car (high end audiophile dac,preamp,amplifier) when a $10,000 car (one of ASR’s darling products) with $5000 of science, shocks, wheels/tires and tuning (measurement mic and DSP) could outperform it in all performance metrics outside of creature comforts and luxury.

I hope the parallel I am drawing is clear…

I think the car analogy does absolutely NOT work in audio. A Porsche is much more expensive than the average car, but has much more to offer, higher speed, faster accelaration, better driving experience, great design etc. This means to say on the specs it is far superiour, much better engineered. Most so-called high-end hifi products have just better material and nicer design, but often even poorer specs than well engineered cheaper contenders.

 

[amirm]

USD$ 1299 is the price from miniDSP direct, which is a company based in China/Honkong. How do you not have to pay import taxes?

I only get hit with a few dollars from FedEx. In general we don't have duty on audio products.

 

[MacClintock]

I only get hit with a few dollars from FedEx. In general we don't have duty on audio products.

Is this by law or just how it works in practice? In Germany there are 19% + x import taxes which you hardly can escape and in Brazil, where I currently live, a disgusting 60%!

 

[Peternz]

With the profits they make from selling products at exorbitant prices they could even finance an Audio Precision APx555 B-Series Analyzer

Why would they do that, when Amir will analyse and debug their products for nothing?

 

[Endibol]

Why would they do that, when Amir will analyse and debug their products for nothing?

To avoid bad advertisement, ruining their reputation?

 

[DACs_Lover]

Another Audiofool products.

 

[Peternz]

To avoid bad advertisement, ruining their reputation?

It is a little late for that now, don't you think?

 

[ocinn]

USD$ 1299 is the price from miniDSP direct, which is a company based in China/Honkong. How do you not have to pay import taxes?

0 tax. ‍

Also if I recall correctly, the last minidsp order I placed was shipped from the USA, not overseas. So no shipping customs either.

 

[Endibol]

It is a little late for that now, don't you think?

 

[daniboun]

View attachment 317240

0 tax. ‍

Also if I recall correctly, the last minidsp order I placed was shipped from the USA, not overseas. So no shipping customs either.

 

[tcli]

Note added to review post regarding driver issue and linearity.

@amirm Don't you think that the "distortion+noise relative to digital level" measurement had suffer from the same driver problem ?

 

[DSJR]

I think the car analogy does absolutely NOT work in audio. A Porsche is much more expensive than the average car, but has much more to offer, higher speed, faster accelaration, better driving experience, great design etc. This means to say on the specs it is far superiour, much better engineered. Most so-called high-end hifi products have just better material and nicer design, but often even poorer specs than well engineered cheaper contenders.

Some Porsches apparently use a lot of VW/Audi parts around the basic design and charge substantially more for the identical item I was told by a one-time Boxster owner who finally saw sense and returned to masochistic Alfas (his current Alfa is in superb condition and sailed through it's MOT unlike other examples he's owned)

 

[BDWoody]

(his current Alfa is in superb condition and sailed through it's MOT unlike other examples he's owned)

Give it time...

 

[DSJR]

Give it time...

This one is a UK rarity, owned by a dedicated caring Alfa enthusiast from new and my pal, the second owner, continues to love and cherish it as it was with the first owner, as it's not a 'daily driver' and only goes out in it for fun.. A car to me now is a competent box on wheels that behaves well on the road under mixed conditions and is cheap to insure, tax and service. Like my stereo gear, none of you would look twice at it and that suits me fine...

 

[Scytales]

OK, here is where we stand on the linearity issue after spending last evening on it.

I noticed that if I changed the amount of buffering for the ASIO driver, the nature of the bug changes. Oddly, lowering the buffer size down to 128 bytes (default in AP is 512), caused it to almost run reliably. Conversely, changing the buffer to 2048 made it much, much worse. It seems that data is being lost but why smaller buffers make that better, I don't know. To confirm this is a USB driver issue, I ran the test using Toslink. That worked perfectly:
View attachment 317137

This would explain why they company did not see the error. They are using older generation Audio Precision analyzer which does not support USB interface. So they did their testing with Toslink/Coax and didn't see it. I have suggested that they borrow a current generation AP to replicate the error. And I have offered to give them the project file to do so.

As far as I can tell, this will impact anyone using the product over USB. So I hope the company fixes the bug and that it is only a firmware/driver issue.

FYI Daniel is complaining that I should have done the above investigation prior to publication of the review. I explained to him that some 450 DACs have passed this test and only one other one showed linearity bug (that was a 20 to 24 bit conversion issue which was fixed with new firmware). And that debugging products is outside of the scope of a review. I will be shipping the product to its owner shortly.

Very interesting finding !

By the way, I once tabulated the low level linearity measurement results of digital devices published on the website of Miller Audio Research. This work have showed me that in some cases, the low level linearity of a particular DAC is worse with USB than with S/PDIF.

To me, that seems to imply that USB, while a convenient and higher bandwidth digital interface, potentially has some issues depending of the software or hardware associated and require thorough evaluation from a user perspective in order to check that all is fine.

A standard test procedure would be welcomed in order to check if a particular device suffers or not the kind of problem you just identified.

 

[johnwmclean]

“As you’ve no doubt gathered, the Weiss DAC 502 delivered phenomenally good performance across all the tests performed by Newport Test Labs. Across nearly all parameters, the Weiss DAC 502 delivered the best performance I have seen from any DAC… period. A stunning achievement indeed!”

Weiss DAC502 review

Possibly the best DAC we've heard, and yet it's relatively affordable

www.whathifi.com

Is Newport Test Labs an independent facility? Who knows...