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Vintage amplifiers that could challenge or approach current state of the art amplifiers

March Audio

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To be honest, with me it is not about the weight or dimensions, but I am feeling a little troubled just reading the words 'switching power supply'. In my personal experience such technology has very little in common with an audiophile listening experience. For example, I had quite a bid of noise on the power grid despite running a dedicated power cord. It turned out that 50% of this came from the DAC's switching power supply. I replaced it with a 100 VA linear power supply and guess what... Switching power supplies might be good for shipping costs and for the energy bill, but they tend to mess up the sound.

Sorry but this is quite wrong. Smps are not a problem at all in audio electronics. The top performing amps tested by Amir on this forum use smps. If you had audible problems then it was almost certainly a ground loop. The fatal flaw of single ended RCA interconnections.
 
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March Audio

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Yes, agreed. Hum from linear supplies can be problematic for phono, and this is 50% of my music. And meanwhile there are ways of lessening this effect, such as proper grounding, etc. When it comes to digital amps, I can only say that I have personally never heard one that could compare with a class A Mosfet in a clean setup. The deviation I could hear sounded like the noise from my DAC's switching power supply. My own experience is limited, of course. It is well possible that this has meanwhile been solved. Which amp would you recommend that I try?
Excuse my pedantry but class d isn't actually digital, quite analogue in fact. :)

What did the noise sound like?
 

Radixons

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Excuse my pedantry but class d isn't actually digital, quite analogue in fact. :)

What did the noise sound like?
Yes, the digital aspect would be the switching power supply that is similar to making waves in the water. I could not hear the noise itself, but the effects on the music were a harshness and sibilance in the highs and a perceived lack of bass. This essentially made the difference between listening on the system play or listening to the music play. If you have been there, you know what I mean.
 

Radixons

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Sorry but this is quite wrong. Smps are not a problem at all in audio electronics. The top performing amps tested by Amir on this forum use smps. If you had audible problems then it was almost certainly a ground loop. The fatal flaw of single ended RCA interconnections.
Well, the noise injected by the power supply could easily be measured and shown. I don't see how this could be wrong. There is quite a bit of literature on the distortion caused by switching transformers of LED lights, etc. Running a dedicated power cable from the fuse box will lessen the effect, but not, if the amp or DAC power supply injects it right where the music plays. Not saying it can't be eliminated through clever filters, but I have not heard it yet.
 

anmpr1

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DB Systems is better known for their preamps, I believe. I am still very happy with my DB1 preamp + DB2 power supply combination. Of their large mono amp DB-6A-M even photos are hard to find.
That was Dave Hadaway's thing. He led the Boston Audio Society for years. His preamp was modular, so you could add whatever you needed--base unit, tone controls, MC amp, and so forth. Not expensive, but not cheap. The tone control module had about anything and everything you could ask for. And some things you would never think to ask for.
 

GeorgeWalk

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Had one of these, back in the day (late 1970s) SAE Mark XXX1B
1595345534889.png
 

Radixons

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That was Dave Hadaway's thing. He led the Boston Audio Society for years. His preamp was modular, so you could add whatever you needed--base unit, tone controls, MC amp, and so forth. Not expensive, but not cheap. The tone control module had about anything and everything you could ask for. And some things you would never think to ask for.
I can believe
That was Dave Hadaway's thing. He led the Boston Audio Society for years. His preamp was modular, so you could add whatever you needed--base unit, tone controls, MC amp, and so forth. Not expensive, but not cheap. The tone control module had about anything and everything you could ask for. And some things you would never think to ask for.
I can well believe he was happy with it. A very versatile little preamp and a real workhorse at that. Probably the best thing about it is its phono stage. Plays sufficiently loud against very low background noise, is both accurate and musical. All you need really.
 

March Audio

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Yes, the digital aspect would be the switching power supply that is similar to making waves in the water. I could not hear the noise itself, but the effects on the music were a harshness and sibilance in the highs and a perceived lack of bass. This essentially made the difference between listening on the system play or listening to the music play. If you have been there, you know what I mean.
So how did you establish this was anything to do with the smps? If you are suspicious of smps and you just switched it out for a linear supply and all the problems went away then your conclusion was almost certainly expectation bias.
 
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March Audio

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Well, the noise injected by the power supply could easily be measured and shown. I don't see how this could be wrong. There is quite a bit of literature on the distortion caused by switching transformers of LED lights, etc. Running a dedicated power cable from the fuse box will lessen the effect, but not, if the amp or DAC power supply injects it right where the music plays. Not saying it can't be eliminated through clever filters, but I have not heard it yet.

Yes it can be easily measured and as mentioned most of the top rated amplifiers measured by Amir here use smps and show no issues either by measurement or audibly.

I'm afraid you are making connections that aren't necessarily there. I can quite easily see how this can be wrong.
 
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DonH56

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The noise from SMPS is decades above the audio band, unlike linear supplies, and filtering reduces it to nil. Whatever harshness was heard was not the power supply. Marketing literature, or actual studies? And AFAIK the primary coupling mechanism for LED lights to audio components and such is EMI/RFI.
 

TomJ

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I have a Krell KAV250a/3. (3x250w into 8r, 500w into 4r, 1000w into 8r bridged)
Not a fancy looking box...but I've always wonfered about some of the 'dumbed down' versions of products (like this one) from some of the top companies. What corners were cut compared to the higher price lines, and what difference will it make to me?

Also the KAV250a stereo version. Fully balanced, 2kVA, class A input and driver stages, 5pr BJT/ch output stage, very high build quality. Still using mine every day after 20 years, 100% reliable and dead quiet. At time of purchase, SQ in blind listening tests like FPB of same power.
 
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Radixons

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Yes it can be easily measured and as mentioned most of the top rated amplifiers measured by Amir here use smps and show no issues either by measurement or audibly.

I'm afraid you are making connections that aren't necessarily there. I can quite easily how this can be wrong.
I agree that it is quite easy to jump to conclusions, and yet you will agree that most people have never heard a proper system play and would rather kill sonic imbalances with DSP and sub. To me, signal integrity is more important than watts. My comment is based only on my own observations and evaluated through my own ears on a 2 channel system without sub or electronic helpers to flatten the curve. The tonal balance of my system has been correct ever since the switching Cambridge DAC power supply (tellingly made by a company called 'Golden Profit') was replaced by a linear one. This has made me distrust switching supplies.
 

Radixons

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The noise from SMPS is decades above the audio band, unlike linear supplies, and filtering reduces it to nil. Whatever harshness was heard was not the power supply. Marketing literature, or actual studies? And AFAIK the primary coupling mechanism for LED lights to audio components and such is EMI/RFI.
I heard the sonic imbalance (an unpleasant leaning towards the higher spectrum) and thought it was the speakers, the amp, whatever. Some weeks later a friend came over to test for distortion on my dedicated power line and we found that some had remained. Most tellingly there were periodic spikes that my friend said were typical of phase cutting and asked me if I had a switching supply somewhere. I pointed to my Cambridge DAC, and pulling the plug, the spikes were gone. I bought a linear power supply instead. The sonic imbalance was gone. Not sure if it was the switching itself or that the new power supply is simply stronger.
 

March Audio

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I heard the sonic imbalance (an unpleasant leaning towards the higher spectrum) and thought it was the speakers, the amp, whatever. Some weeks later a friend came over to test for distortion on my dedicated power line and we found that some had remained. Most tellingly there were periodic spikes that my friend said were typical of phase cutting and asked me if I had a switching supply somewhere. I pointed to my Cambridge DAC, and pulling the plug, the spikes were gone. I bought a linear power supply instead. The sonic imbalance was gone. Not sure if it was the switching itself or that the new power supply is simply stronger.
Again Im afraid you are jumping to conclusions. Noise on your mains does not mean there is any effect happening in the audio output.

If you were tested without knowing which supply was being used you would never be able to tell a difference.
 

TomJ

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Remember he is using a output transformer so the number as you change the tap for the speaker output, the number of wire turns on the secondary changes.

BTW Dick Burwen designed some of the origianl modules for the Mark Levinson LNP 2 Pre Amp and later the Cello Audio Pallette for Levinson, which was based on an EQ he build to adjust recording on his own systems. 20 years he Built a software version of the Audio Pallette, Since he is now ~90 he liscensed the software to Levinson who markets it though his Daniel Hertz company.

Brings back memories... Dick invited me over years ago for some listening to his "wall of sound" system, which included multiple speakers (that he built, as I recall) and a pair of Hartley subwoofers under the sofa for that final kick. His amps? Well over a dozen Phase Linear 400s, intense... Great guy, interesting and fun.
 

Koeitje

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I agree that it is quite easy to jump to conclusions, and yet you will agree that most people have never heard a proper system play and would rather kill sonic imbalances with DSP and sub. To me, signal integrity is more important than watts. My comment is based only on my own observations and evaluated through my own ears on a 2 channel system without sub or electronic helpers to flatten the curve. The tonal balance of my system has been correct ever since the switching Cambridge DAC power supply (tellingly made by a company called 'Golden Profit') was replaced by a linear one. This has made me distrust switching supplies.
I think it's actually the inverse, I think you have never heard a proper dsp at work with subwoofer integration. Regardless of your speakers, a subwoofer will add good things. You are probably the victim of your own preconceptions. Unless you have your listening room treated like a studio and your loudspeakers are very good, your tonal balance is most likely a mess.
 

Radixons

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Again Im afraid you are jumping to conclusions. Noise on your mains does not mean there is any effect happening in the audio output.

If you were tested without knowing which supply was being used you would never be able to tell a difference.
Sorry, but how am I to agree to that? By this you are implying that neither the unpleasantness I heard before, nor my satisfaction should be taken as measures. Instead it would be wise for me to accept your judgement from a distance that my experience is a figment of my imagination. That's a tough call.
 

Radixons

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I think it's actually the inverse, I think you have never heard a proper dsp at work with subwoofer integration. Regardless of your speakers, a subwoofer will add good things. You are probably the victim of your own preconceptions. Unless you have your listening room treated like a studio and your loudspeakers are very good, your tonal balance is most likely a mess.
Let's agree to disagree on this. In my understanding of systems the simple rule is 'garbage in = garbage out'. I am running two systems in completely different rooms (1. stone walls, boxy with high ceilings, big sofa; 2. plaster walls, under the roof of the building, hardly any cushions) following this simple rule of integrity. Both are very balanced sounding. It's old school, I know, but with diligence and practice it works. Each to his own. I am more of the fly fisher, I suppose.
 
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