Vintage amplifiers that could challenge or approach current state of the art amplifiers

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Sorry, but how am I to agree to that? By this you are implying that neither the unpleasantness I heard before, nor my satisfaction should be taken as measures. Instead it would be wise for me to accept your judgement from a distance that my experience is a figment of my imagination. That's a tough call.

Yeah, t's a tough call. One that most of us made some time ago. Our brains play tricks on us. We often hear what we want to hear.

 

[Radixons]

Yeah, t's a tough call. One that most of us made some time ago. Our brains play tricks on us. We often hear what we want to hear.

Ain't that so.

 

[Koeitje]

Let's agree to disagree on this. In my understanding of systems the simple rule is 'garbage in = garbage out'. I am running two systems in completely different rooms (1. stone walls, boxy with high ceilings, big sofa; 2. plaster walls, under the roof of the building, hardly any cushions) following this simple rule of integrity. Both are very balanced sounding. It's old school, I know, but with diligence and practice it works. Each to his own. I am more of the fly fisher, I suppose.

You are indeed outputting garbage if you don't treat the room or at least try to sort out the low-end with a dsp. Your room is an input.

 

[Radixons]

You are indeed outputting garbage if you don't treat the room or at least try to sort out the low-end with a dsp. Your room is an input.

The argument against DSPs goes like this: With a DSP you lose signal integrity as it is nothing more than a extravagant multi band equaliser. You are introducing artificial phase irregularities and all kinds of electronic issues. Human beings on the other hand have been living in caves for millions of years and have become accustomed to filtering room differences from the spectrum. You don't have to agree, but I have had friends rip it out and be amazed of how alive and musical their systems became.

 

[SIY]

The argument against DSPs goes like this: With a DSP you lose signal integrity as it is nothing more than a extravagant multi band equaliser.

No, that's more of an indication of not understanding some very basic theory.

 

[anmpr1]

DB Systems is better known for their preamps.

Found a pic of several of Dave Hadaway's preamp modules. Main unit, tone control unit, and MC amp w/power supply. I never owned any DB Systems gear, but it always appealed to me.

The tone module appears to be modeled after the late '50s tube preamp gear, such as David Hafler's PAS preamp et al. Very useful functional stuff for adjusting the stereo image on early recordings which often left a big hole in the middle of the mix. I'm pretty sure that's what the 'blend' function is for.

If you ask me, this functionality is what preamps ought to feature. Not simply a source selector with volume pot.

 

[Radixons]

No, that's more of an indication of not understanding some very basic theory.

OK, let's hear it.

 

[SIY]

OK, let's hear it.

"Explain signal processing theory, Fourier theory, vibrations and waves, and acoustics to me in a forum post."

 

[Radixons]

Found a pic of several of Dave Hadaway's preamp modules. Main unit, tone control unit, and MC amp w/power supply. I never owned any DB Systems gear, but it always appealed to me.

The tone module appears to be modeled after the late '50s tube preamp gear, such as David Hafler's PAS preamp et al. Very useful functional stuff for adjusting the stereo image on early recordings which often left a big hole in the middle of the mix. I'm pretty sure that's what the 'blend' function is for.

If you ask me, this functionality is what preamps ought to feature. Not simply a source selector with volume pot.

View attachment 74634

Cool...! Thank you for sharing. I have never seen an image of them placed side by side, although the power supplies are not on top of the correct unit, as I have the bottom left amp with the top right supply, but perhaps there was a change in production. The subject of tone controls is a bit touchy, of course. I would go for purity myself. Here is a short description of mine with specs, more on their website. https://eiaudio.de/gear-and-review/pre-amplifiers/db-systems-db1-db2#share

 

[Radixons]

"Explain signal processing theory, Fourier theory, vibrations and waves, and acoustics to me in a forum post."

Many roads lead to Rome as they say. You trust your alterations to the signal are great and noise should not matter theory and I trust my signal integrity because noise does matter theory. Your system won't sound any better by convincing me. As long as we're both happy, what's the problem? I only objected to being told that my experience was not valid.

 

[SIY]

Many roads lead to Rome as they say. You trust your alterations to the signal are great and noise should not matter theory and I trust my signal integrity because noise does matter theory. Your system won't sound any better by convincing me. As long as we're both happy, what's the problem? I only objected to being told that my experience was not valid.

My post was directed to the nonsense about DSP, not your claims about power supplies based on zero actual evidence.

 

[SIY]

The argument against DSPs goes like this: With a DSP you lose signal integrity as it is nothing more than a extravagant multi band equaliser. You are introducing artificial phase irregularities and all kinds of electronic issues. Human beings on the other hand have been living in caves for millions of years and have become accustomed to filtering room differences from the spectrum. You don't have to agree, but I have had friends rip it out and be amazed of how alive and musical their systems became.

Just to put a fine point on it, I've highlighted in red everything that is completely incorrect.

 

[PaulD]

Just to put a fine point on it, I've highlighted in red everything that is completely incorrect.

You missed one SIY, the friends heard what they were told they would hear - without a properly controlled listening test it's worthless.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Many roads may lead to Rome, but quite a large number do not. And often, the folks that walk those roads will arrive at a different place, and they will believe they are in Rome. Then they go on the Rome forum and say "hey, I took this other road and it got me to Rome just fine!" Then, when the Rome people say "well have you ever compared a picture of Rome to a picture of the place you are in just to make sure?" they say "no, why? I know where I am! I'm in Rome!"

 

[Radixons]

Many roads may lead to Rome, but quite a large number do not. And often, the folks that walk those roads will arrive at a different place, and they will believe they are in Rome. Then they go on the Rome forum and say "hey, I took this other road and it got me to Rome just fine!" Then, when the Rome people say "well have you ever compared a picture of Rome to a picture of the place you are in just to make sure?" they say "no, why? I know where I am! I'm in Rome!"

Yes, well that could obviously be said for the both of us, coming at the subject from opposed directions. Since the subject was on vintage amps, I got interested. I did not anticipate to be blasted with DSP and digital transformers. What is your current gear, I wonder. And what would be your pick of a great vintage amp? I even changed my cover photo to show you my pick, the Hafler LX-280.

 

[SIY]

You missed one SIY, the friends heard what they were told they would hear - without a properly controlled listening test it's worthless.

Well, the claim was so vague and non-specific that I'm reminded of the famous Pauli line, "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig; es ist nicht einmal falsch!"

 

[Radixons]

Well, the claim was so vague and non-specific that I'm reminded of the famous Pauli line, "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig; es ist nicht einmal falsch!"

OK, now I get the title "Audio Science Review". It has to be measured and not heard. But when it can be measured, such as the interference from a power supply, you claim it cannot be heard, right? Well, go figure.

 

[SIY]

What is your current gear, I wonder. And what would be your pick of a great vintage amp?

Over the years, I've mostly used stuff that I designed and built. That's changed recently because of my reviewing, so there's a lot of different equipment in and out of here. What's in my lab at the moment is an NAD M10, Purifi Eigentakt 400, Halo JC-5, an old Adcom GFA 555 (a great vintage amp), an RME ADI-2 Pro FS BE, and my weird multiamp speakers based on the NHT 3.3.

edit: downstairs system is a pair of Vanatoo T1E driven by my iPhone or the TV.

OK, now I get the title "Audio Science Review". It has to be measured and not heard. But when it can be measured, such as the interference from a power supply, you claim it cannot be heard, right? Well, go figure.

Completely wrong stuff highlighted in red.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

OK, now I get the title "Audio Science Review". It has to be measured and not heard. But when it can be measured, such as the interference from a power supply, you claim it cannot be heard, right? Well, go figure.

Audio Science Review - where measurements can tell us quite a lot, and where claims that one can hear things that are probably un-hearable will be challenged with an expectation of some sort of objective evidence...

And I'm not sure how my equipment is relevant really. It doesn't matter if I listen to my music on an early 70s transistor radio - until I venture onto a forum such as this and make claims about my radio being the best way to go...

 

[Radixons]

Over the years, I've mostly used stuff that I designed and built. That's changed recently because of my reviewing, so there's a lot of different equipment in and out of here. What's in my lab at the moment is an NAD M10, Purifi Eigentakt 400, Halo JC-5, an old Adcom GFA 555 (a great vintage amp), an RME ADI-2 Pro FS BE, and my weird multiamp speakers based on the NHT 3.3.

edit: downstairs system is a pair of Vanatoo T1E driven by my iPhone or the TV.
Completely wrong stuff highlighted in red.

Both the Parasound and the Adcom look great. Adcom had a good name for budget gear that punched above its weight. Would you recommend the NAD? I have yet to purchase a decent network streamer, but somehow I still prefer to put the media on by hand. I have tried Tidal and Amazon HD, but I get exhausted by the sheer abundance more often than not and end up playing a CD or record.