Vintage amplifiers that could challenge or approach current state of the art amplifiers

[March Audio]

Sorry, but how am I to agree to that? By this you are implying that neither the unpleasantness I heard before, nor my satisfaction should be taken as measures. Instead it would be wise for me to accept your judgement from a distance that my experience is a figment of my imagination. That's a tough call.

No they shouldn't I'm afraid because of the frailties of human perception. Your perceptions are biased by many factors. It's not a figment of your imagination, it's just the effect of simple human psychology. You were already suspicious of smps, you change it out for a linear psu and hey presto problem has gone away. It's simple expectation bias at play.

Now do the same experiment with a friend swapping the psu without you knowing or being able to see which was being used. I guarantee you will not be able to identify which was which with any level of accuracy.

Second issue here is that even if you are correct in this particular instance you have extrapolated this to mean that all smps in audio is bad. This is not the case.

My "judgement from a distance" is based on measuring power supplies under controlled conditions and seeing what effect they have.

 

[Radixons]

Audio Science Review - where measurements can tell us quite a lot, and where claims that one can hear things that are probably un-hearable will be challenged with an expectation of some sort of objective evidence...

And I'm not sure how my equipment is relevant really. It doesn't matter if I listen to my music on an early 70s transistor radio - until I venture onto a forum such is this and make claims about my radio being the best way to go...

Yes, I can see that you guys are leaning toward the scientific. Most of my friends are too, and you can imagine that we have long nights.

 

[PaulD]

OK, now I get the title "Audio Science Review". It has to be measured and not heard. But when it can be measured, such as the interference from a power supply, you claim it cannot be heard, right? Well, go figure.

Not at all - things can be a heard, but if it is imagined it will be challenged The only way to ensure it is actually heard and not imagined is to do a properly controlled listening test. Things that are measured to be below the threshold of hearing are not being heard, people who claim that are imagining it. Controlled listening test have proved this, to the disappointment of many golden ears.

 

[PaulD]

Well, the claim was so vague and non-specific that I'm reminded of the famous Pauli line, "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig; es ist nicht einmal falsch!"

That did give me a good laugh!

 

[Radixons]

Not at all - things can be a heard, but if it is imagined it will be challenged The only way to ensure it is actually heard and not imagined is to do a properly controlled listening test. Things that are measured to be below the threshold of hearing are not being heard, people who claim that are imagining it. Controlled listening test have proved this, to the disappointment of many golden ears.

Interference to the power line does not come out as this same interference to the signal, agreed. However, it does influence the equation that is to be music. I have learned that great setups can make gear invisible. If we get to this point using a DSP, all is OK. But we get to this point without one, also OK, right? We had these discussions in the 80s about EQs. Better with or without? Today, I don't know many people who proudly post pictures of themselves standing beside theirs.

 

[March Audio]

OK, now I get the title "Audio Science Review". It has to be measured and not heard. But when it can be measured, such as the interference from a power supply, you claim it cannot be heard, right? Well, go figure.

Point you are missing here is that noise on the mains does not equal noise being delivered to the components in your dac or amp. The whole purpose of a power supply is to take the "noisy" mains and turn it into a stable and quiet source for those components. Have you ever measured the noise on a components power rail?

 

[PaulD]

Interference to the power line does not come out as this same interference to the signal, agreed. However, it does influence the equation that is to be music. I have learned that great setups can make gear invisible. If we get to this point using a DSP, all is OK. But we get to this point without one, also OK, right? We had these discussions in the 80s about EQs. Better with or without? Today, I don't know many people who proudly post pictures of themselves standing beside theirs.

Whaaat? I'm taking a leaf from SIY with colouring the things that are incorrect- stuff in red is nonsense - "the equation that is music"??? Gimme a break (my PhD is in composition).

SIY was right... Noch ein mal, "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig; es ist nicht einmal falsch!" - this is not just incorrect, it's nonsensical... (literally not even false)

 

[March Audio]

Interference to the power line does not come out as this same interference to the signal, agreed. However, it does influence the equation that is to be music. I have learned that great setups can make gear invisible. If we get to this point using a DSP, all is OK. But we get to this point without one, also OK, right? We had these discussions in the 80s about EQs. Better with or without? Today, I don't know many people who proudly post pictures of themselves standing beside theirs.

How? Please explain and demonstrate.

 

[Radixons]

Have you ever measured the noise on a components power rail?[/QUOTE]

No, I have not. I am not experienced in conducting measurements myself. The only measurements we conducted were with my engineer friend on the power distributor strip. He himself doubts the effects of such interference on music much like you.

 

[Radixons]

How? Please explain and demonstrate.

Well, I guess you are familiar with the effects of EMI on power supplies and the traceability in music, right? This would be such a case in point.

 

[tmtomh]

Sorry, but how am I to agree to that? By this you are implying that neither the unpleasantness I heard before, nor my satisfaction should be taken as measures. Instead it would be wise for me to accept your judgement from a distance that my experience is a figment of my imagination. That's a tough call.

No, it's the converse: Your experience is your experience and no one can question that.

It's when you start making factual and causal claims based on your personal experience that you are by definition inviting others to weigh in. And if your causal claim is demonstrably disprovable, someone here, in this case @March Audio , is inevitably going to point that out. He can't say for sure why you experienced what you did - but that doesn't mean that he cannot cite a factor that almost certainly was not the reason you experienced what you did.

So if you heard a difference between the two amps, that's what you heard. March Audio saying that the SMPS was not responsible for the difference you heard is not an invalidation of your experience. It's informed disagreement with the explanation you gave for your why you had that experience.

 

[Radixons]

No, it's the converse: Your experience is your experience and no one can question that.

March Audio saying that the SMPS was not responsible for the difference you heard is not an invalidation of your experience. It's informed disagreement with the explanation you gave for your why you had that experience.

Good point. It could be from the difference in available power to the DAC that the resulting musical output supported by the linear power supply had a better deep end and was less leaning towards hash and bright.

 

[SIY]

Both the Parasound and the Adcom look great. Adcom had a good name for budget gear that punched above its weight. Would you recommend the NAD? I have yet to purchase a decent network streamer, but somehow I still prefer to put the media on by hand. I have tried Tidal and Amazon HD, but I get exhausted by the sheer abundance more often than not and end up playing a CD or record.

I’ve been delighted with the diversity I get from Amazon HD. Nearly everything I can think of, I can find there. Tried a long shot last night, Ana Egge’s cover of Tinfoil Satellite. There it was!

As to the M10, my extensive review was in the latest issue of AudioXpress.

 

[SIY]

Good point. It could be from the difference in available power to the DAC that the resulting musical output supported by the linear power supply had a better deep end and was less leaning towards hash and bright.

Or maybe there was no actual sonic difference. You didn’t do the basic experiment to determine that.

 

[Radixons]

As to the M10, my extensive review was in the latest issue of AudioXpress.

Thanks. I'll have a look for it.

 

[Radixons]

Or maybe there was no actual sonic difference. You didn’t do the basic experiment to determine that.

Listening enjoyment without stumbling over tonal imbalance does not qualify as 'the basic experiment'? How else should I determine my success in setting up a system, if my own ears cannot play a role in this?

 

[March Audio]

Well, I guess you are familiar with the effects of EMI on power supplies and the traceability in music, right? This would be such a case in point.

Traceability in music? What does this even mean?

I am familiar with looking for noise on power supply rails and seeing if any effects end up in the output signal and I can assure you that you are jumping to conclusions if you think noise on the mains or from a smps necessarily ends up in the output signal.

BTW what I was asking was for you to explain and demonstrate an actual real world cause and effect, not for you to try and deflect it back on to me.

 

[March Audio]

No, it's the converse: Your experience is your experience and no one can question that.

It's when you start making factual and causal claims based on your personal experience that you are by definition inviting others to weigh in. And if your causal claim is demonstrably disprovable, someone here, in this case @March Audio , is inevitably going to point that out. He can't say for sure why you experienced what you did - but that doesn't mean that he cannot cite a factor that almost certainly was not the reason you experienced what you did.

So if you heard a difference between the two amps, that's what you heard. March Audio saying that the SMPS was not responsible for the difference you heard is not an invalidation of your experience. It's informed disagreement with the explanation you gave for your why you had that experience.

Well only partially. We have skipped the first fundamental step.

What I am saying is that whilst Radixions experienced a difference, we have no way of establishing if this experience was due to an actual change in the sound.

No controls we're in place to mitigate the effect of bias. As such the conclusions cannot be trusted.

Once you have confidently established there is a change in sound only then can you start to consider cause and effect.

 

[March Audio]

Or maybe there was no actual sonic difference. You didn’t do the basic experiment to determine that.

This.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Listening enjoyment without stumbling over tonal imbalance does not qualify as 'the basic experiment'? How else should I determine my success in setting up a system, if my own ears cannot play a role in this?

Your ears can definitely play a role. You just need to do your best to eliminate your brain and your biases from the equation. Blind A/B/X testing is a good way to go...