Tweeter comparaison

[Goodman]

How do modern mid-tweeters compare to the much venerated SEAS HO87 tweeter?

 

[alex-z]

The whole concept of a "mid-tweeter" isn't popular these days. Smaller sizes like 27-29mm with an integrated waveguide are preferred for their better directivity control at the crossover region and above 12kHz.

 

[Goodman]

The whole concept of a "mid-tweeter" isn't popular these days. Smaller sizes like 27-29mm with an integrated waveguide are preferred for their better directivity control at the crossover region and above 12kHz.

I agree, it's not popular and directivity control, is not the main reason. The reason is the main "quasi audiophile" market is geared toward 2 way speakers with a 6.5 inch woofer if you can call it that.

 

[airborne]

i used a scan-speak 1.5" dome mid-tweeter once crossed to a Beyma AST-05 bullet in an "SQL" type car audio system crossed at 7 khz and it sounded great - loud, liquid smooth and airy highs ...

i don't know if they still make that dome but if i had to build that system again i would change absolutely nothing - it was literally perfect the way it was ...

listening to psychedelic trance synths sounded like having a fiber optic cable plugged right into your brain to the point of almost becoming disoriented ...

i haven't experienced the same kind of top end since ...

only real problem was the rest of the setup couldn't keep up with these two drivers and the car died on me and at that point i just switched to leasing new cars and so i never heard either of the drivers again ... i should still have them somewhere but not sure i would be able to find them ...

 

[Chromatischism]

Fewer crossovers = better

Look at the excellent SB Acoustics SB19

 

[valerianf]

Sensitivity: 88.5 dB!
Not very efficient nowadays.

 

[Chromatischism]

Sensitivity: 88.5 dB!
Not very efficient nowadays.

It gets a boost when put into a waveguide. Besides, the woofer it's paired with and the box volume will mostly determine sensitivity.

 

[airborne]

It gets a boost when put into a waveguide. Besides, the woofer it's paired with and the box volume will mostly determine sensitivity.

please explain how 3/4" cloth-soaked-in-asphalt dome driven by a VC half the size of a wedding ring can reproduce a crash of a 1 foot cymbal ...

it can't do that any more than a 6" woofer can reproduce the sound of artillery fire.

there is a condition among DIY speaker builders where they look at SPL of one driver relative to another and at SPL at one frequency relative to SPL at another frequency ....

THOSE THINGS DO NOT MATTER

it is the ABSOLUTE spl that matters - not SPL relative to anything else

the absolute max SPL of a 3/4" soft dome will be about 100 db PEAK @ listening position.

rock concerts are regulated to 100 db AVERAGE level @ listening position ...

peak to average ratio of music is about 10 - 20 decibels ...

3/4 domes are suitable only for nearfield monitors and even then only for the subcompact ones that you have to carry with you on a plane or something ...

if you don't care about SPL then just take a headphone capsule and run it as a full range speaker with some linkwitz transform to extend the bass response. you will get maybe 30 decibels or so - somewhere in the noise floor of your room - but what do you care ? since it will be a full range it will match its own sensitivity so no issues !

using a 3/4" dome tweeter ( with perfect sound quality ) is one of the biggest regrets in my speaker building life. even though it was my first speaker and i was in high school i will never forgive myself for this.

 

[Chromatischism]

there is a condition among DIY speaker builders where they look at SPL of one driver relative to another and at SPL at one frequency relative to SPL at another frequency ....

THOSE THINGS DO NOT MATTER

it is the ABSOLUTE spl that matters - not SPL relative to anything else

Those things absolutely matter if you care about tonal accuracy and neutrality. Maybe you're on the wrong site.

rock concerts are regulated to 100 db AVERAGE level @ listening position ...

That has nothing to do with my listening levels in my house.

3/4 domes are suitable only for nearfield monitors and even then only for the subcompact ones that you have to carry with you on a plane or something

Disagree because there are good examples of implementation out in the wild.

using a 3/4" dome tweeter ( with perfect sound quality ) is one of the biggest regrets in my speaker building life. even though it was my first speaker and i was in high school i will never forgive myself for this.

Maybe you didn't use a good one or the implementation was bad.

 

[Chromatischism]

Here is the renowned Jeff Bagby speaking highly of the SB19.

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/.../64968-sb19-tweeter-for-the-iron-driver/page5

Someone in that thread pushed it to 110 dB and it didn't fall apart. And that's in free air without a waveguide giving it any advantage.

Of course in the end it's all about the implementation. The best tweeter can be made to perform poorly.

And here is an excellent implementation of it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dt-s400-mkii-spinorama-and-measurements.30251

 

[airborne]

Here is the renowned Jeff Bagby speaking highly of the SB19.

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/.../64968-sb19-tweeter-for-the-iron-driver/page5

Someone in that thread pushed it to 110 dB and it didn't fall apart. And that's in free air without a waveguide giving it any advantage.

Of course in the end it's all about the implementation. The best tweeter can be made to perform poorly.

And here is an excellent implementation of it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dt-s400-mkii-spinorama-and-measurements.30251

not hard to make a 19 mm dome measure flat. soft or hard dome. even easier to simply equalize it flat. none of those things will endow it with extra dynamic capability though.

if Jeff B "spoke highly of it" that means it's a good driver FOR A 3/4" DOME @ $20

this is like saying Miata is the best sports car ever. which is true. so long as you limit the scope of cars you're looking at to affordable and reliable naturally aspirated 4 cylinder cars.

some people understand the implied asterisks and some do not.

there is definitely a place in the world for 19 mm domes. that place is in micro-sized nearfield studio monitors mated to a 4" woofer.

people who fear crossovers shouldn't build speakers.

 

[Chromatischism]

there is definitely a place in the world for 19 mm domes. that place is in micro-sized nearfield studio monitors mated to a 4" woofer.

Again you're wrong. These are being used in speakers that get plenty loud enough for home theater use. Mine have plenty of headroom that I don't use because it's simply not comfortable to listen to them that loud. We really only need max 95 dB for peaks at home with an average level of 75-85 dB.

Besides, the tweeter is not going to be the first thing to give out, especially not in a waveguide. The bass driver will give up the ghost way before the tweeter.

No, they are not PA speakers, Klipsch La Scalas, or JTRs. But that doesn't mean they aren't good speakers. There are many ways to produce good audio.

 

[airborne]

the tweeter is not going to be the first thing to give out, especially not in a waveguide. The bass driver will give up the ghost way before the tweeter.

you can randomly space 8 subwoofers around the room and bass quality will actually improve ( flatter, more consistent response )

you can't do that with tweeters ...

i was reading something a few days ago about line arrays at rock concerts and surprisingly enough even with three 140 decibel compression tweeters per array element it's the tweeters that are the bottleneck of performance of those arrays NOT the woofers ...

that surprised even me ...

woofers improved quite a bit in recent years with drivers like B&C iPAL having 21" diameter, 6" voice coil and 80 mm peak to peak travel ...

amplifiers improved, with Powersoft X4L delivering *** 32 kilowatts *** of power in a standard 2RU chassis ...

and here you are claiming the same tweeter i thought was underpowered 25 years ago when i used one is the strongest link in the chain 25 years later ...

i don't buy it ...

but enough trolling !! it's 5 AM time to start getting ready for gym ...

 

[Chromatischism]

That's great, but with home speakers, the woofers are the first to distort and bottom out. Just look at any review here.

 

[iMickey503]

I knew a Guy named Airborne. He was born on the plane into Portland as I recall.
He had Diabeetus!

 

[ctrl]

please explain how 3/4" cloth-soaked-in-asphalt dome driven by a VC half the size of a wedding ring can reproduce a crash of a 1 foot cymbal ...

How can an 18'' subwoofer reproduce a 2m double bass, a passing truck, a volcanic eruption in a movie with a 4'' VC? Such comparisons usually lead nowhere.

rock concerts are regulated to 100 db AVERAGE level @ listening position ...

No, that is not correct, at least for Germany. It applies 99dB(A) average sound pressure level (at a maximum duration of 2h) at the "loudest point" accessible to the audience (for example, directly 1m in front of the PA speaker).

In addition, the spectrum of music corresponds approximately to that of pink noise (which is also used to determine the maximum sound pressure level before concerts).

3/4'' (19mm) tweeters are usually crossed >3kHz with -6dB at the crossover frequency.
Pink noise

At 99dB(A) concert level, the tweeter, when playing music, must provide an average of about 94dB(A) SPL or less, because the sound pressure level of PN decreases about -3dB per octave (and music on average too or more).

3/4 domes are suitable only for nearfield monitors and even then only for the subcompact ones that you have to carry with you on a plane or something ...
...
the absolute max SPL of a 3/4" soft dome will be about 100 db PEAK @ listening position.

The 19mm SB tweeter delivers about 100dB@1m@11V continuous power (at appropriate crossover frequency). The peak sound pressure level will probably be much higher.

There are other 3/4'' tweeters that can do significantly more. If I estimate correctly, a ScanSpeak D2010/85100 comes to about 117dB@1m continuous power (8Ohm, [email protected], 90W RMS, 150W long-term max).

This is more than enough dynamic range for listening in a normal listening room.

Of course, in a compression test against a compression driver such a tweeter has no chance - but PA speakers are not the purpose of 3/4'' tweeters.

 

[Chromatischism]

3/4'' (19mm) tweeters are usually crossed >3kHz with -6dB at the crossover frequency.

Do you know of an example speaker using such a crossover? I have one crossed at 2670 and another at 1800 (waveguides).

 

[airborne]

Do you know of an example speaker using such a crossover? I have one crossed at 2670 and another at 1800 (waveguides).

Genelec crosses the 19 mm dome at 3 khz ... to a 4" woofer.

but what do they know ... they are only known to make the world's most accurate speakers.

 

[Chromatischism]

See the above link to @napilopez measurements of a 19mm dome crossed to a 6.5" at 1800 Hz.

 

[ctrl]

Do you know of an example speaker using such a crossover? I have one crossed at 2670 and another at 1800 (waveguides).

@airborne beat me to it. Genelec would have been my answer as well.

There are two models from Harbeth that use a 19mm tweeter, unfortunately the specification for the crossover frequency is missing. But one model uses the 19mm tweeter as a super tweeter, so crossover frequency definitely >3kHz.