Tweeter comparaison

[ctrl]

music is actualy not like pink noise. on average it kind of is, but music has a rising crest factor the higher you go.

there is a test signal created to simulate music crest factor: https://meyersound.com/news/m-noise-test-signal/
and as you probably know Meyer Sound is a big name in PA

That is why I said in post#16 "sound pressure level of PN decreases about -3dB per octave (and music on average too or more)".

In the high-frequency range, the spectrum of music drops more steeply than that of pink noise (PN). There are "isolated" high peaks in the high frequency range of music signals (e.g. percussion), but RMS of the average music signal is "lower" (than PN) and therefore the crest factor (CF) is higher:

Source: Long-term Average Spectrum in Popular Music and its Relation to the Level of the Percussion (with additional content by me)

This is especially true if you look at only certain frequency ranges, for example only one octave. In the high frequency range RMS will decrease (per octave range), but the peaks will remain unchanged high.

Exactly this effect is mapped by the linked M-Noise. For PN, the crest factor is about 12dB almost independent of the selected frequency range (there is PN with other CF, but 12dB is standard).
With M-Noise the peaks remain the same "height" over the frequency range, but RMS decreases towards the treble.

So M-Noise is less stressful for tweeters than PN is, because it is closer to a "real" music signal.

This justifies the considerations about the power handling of tweeters using PN in post#16.

 

[Chromatischism]

over at AVS they told me i need at least four 24" subwoofers, preferably more

Sounds like AVS

 

[Chromatischism]

bookshelf speakers will allready compress at these peaks,
anyways, after switching to PA speakers myself, there seams to be more than just peak compression going on. even at quiet levels home speakers are not able to produce acurate transients. it has probably something to do with rise-time. the time it takes for a driver to reproduce the requested tone.

I do not see compression in Erin's data for bookshelf speakers at those levels. Usually that happens north of 96 dB, not 80's and certainly not 70's.

 

[airborne]

skipped through the video. seams to be the driver used in the new Klipsch Jubilee?
not realy a home solution, and probably not for PA either.
while "less elegant", you can solve the problems digitaly:

in the video Dr. Brown says he envisions the application for his driver is perhaps Cinema speakers which are basically big, heavy point source speakers with focus on speech intelligibility.

i agree with you the driver is not very practical due to its almost 20 pound weight and $999 price. it is really more of an exercise in physics which is why the lecture about it i think is more valuable than the driver itself.

the video you linked i have seen before. i agree that FIR and Coaxial technologies seem to be a good match.

in my video Dr. Brown demonstrates using a computer model some of the issues with B&C and BMS coaxials ( without directly naming those brands of course, but it's clear who the competitors to the Axiperiodic are ) ... but it's possible that FIR could mitigate those issues to some extent ... in the model Dr. Brown showed an impulse sent to a Coaxial CD just keeps going basically forever but of course a proper FIR could reduce this significantly ...

i do not think one solution is better than another - my perspective is that LINE SOURCES are the solution, but i still know very little about line sources ...

a Line Source is at the same time narrow enough for HF and has enough area for LF

of course if you could have an infinite plane source all the issues would be solved completely ... and you can get pretty close to this ideal with electrostatic and planar magnetic headphones ... but not exactly practical with loudspeakers

for loudspeakers a line source is the best we can do and if it is floor to ceiling then it becomes virtually infinite due to reflections extending it ... however what if you can't touch the ceiling ( my ceiling is sloped sideways for example ) that's where things get complicated LOL

 

[Chromatischism]

Don Keele's CBT

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

please explain how 3/4" cloth-soaked-in-asphalt dome driven by a VC half the size of a wedding ring can reproduce a crash of a 1 foot cymbal ...
the absolute max SPL of a 3/4" soft dome will be about 100 db PEAK @ listening position
rock concerts are regulated to 100 db AVERAGE level @ listening position ...

You don't have a clue about sound reproduction - both in live concert and in home.
You started with bashing 3/4" tweeters - which is very wrong, on all accounts. They (the better ones) are perfectly adequate for their job.

3/4" tweeter can easily reproduce "a crash of a 1 foot cymbal" at the listening position in your room. How? Because "a crash of a 1 foot cymbal" in unamplified ("unplugged") live concert is below 100 dB at the listening position 15 meters (or yards) away, at the middle sitting rows.

On the other hand, if you are craving for the same experience of a rock concerts done with sound reinforcement (PA) system, then in your home you must use a genuine PA loudspeaker with high-frequency compression driver - not because it can play louder than a 3/4" tweeter, but because in rock concert you are listening to a high-frequency compression drivers reproducing "a crash of a 1 foot cymbal" - you are not listening to the cymbal itself!

3/4 domes are suitable only for nearfield monitors and even then only for the subcompact ones that you have to carry with you on a plane or something ...

No, 3/4" domes also are suitable in audiophile-style hi-fi home loudspeakers (too numerous to cite).
Although very compact, Genelec 8040b (has 3/4" tweeter) is anything but "subcompact" - you can't carry it with you on a plane!

monitors have a very bright, sharp sound ....
audiophile speakers have a warm, rich sound that is midbass heavy ...

???
Have you ever listened to a studio monitor? Majority of them are not bright or sharp - on the contrary, they are very neutral and natural. Many of them have DIP switches to attenuate the tweeter, if necessary.
Have you ever listened to an audiophile (or "audiophile") speaker? Majority of them are not warm and rich, but very bright and sharp!

If you don't believe me, just look at the frequency response measurements - here on ASR or in hi-fi and pro magazines.

you don't turn up nearfield studio monitors to do some headbanging - that's not what they are for - they're for sitting in a chair for 8 hours and listening for mistakes ... they actually have separate larger main monitors for less critical listening when you want to listen to the music rather than the sound ...

Yes, you do! I was sitting in a chair, in front of Genelec 1030A, for several hours every day, for 7 years... and always have time and opportunity to crank them up for pure enjoyment.
Larger main monitors are not for less critical listening, but exclusively for super-critical listening! Have you ever been in a studio room?

an audiophile speaker is somewhere between a main monitor and a PA speaker ...

No, it is not. Main studio monitor is head and shoulders above any audiophile speaker.

i find that for me PA speakers are most enjoyable dollar for dollar - with PA speakers you neither pay for cabinet finish nor for analytical ability - just for the enjoyment of music.

Finally we have something to agree upon...

monitors are only good as a reference to know what accurate sounds like. but it doesn't sound very good. sounds flat, thin, brittle and harsh for the most part.

... and you blew it again. Studio monitors are not thin, brittle and harsh.

but yeah monitors sound bright because music is recorded bright - it is supposed to be played back on warm sounding speakers that undo this brightness

they record it so bright to improve signal to noise ratio - make the record louder

Wrong. Most of the home hi-fi speakers are bright. Monitors are much more neutral.
Professionals are using compressors to make the record louder. Nobody is making record bright to improve S/N ratio - ask any professional. Have you ever been in a studio room?

passive PA speakers also sound bright simply due to physics - they don't want to waste energy in resistors so they don't try to EQ them flat but use the naturally rising response of drivers ... on other hand active DSP PA speakers do not have this characteristic ...

Wrong, again. The rising high-frequency response often is used to compensate for high-frequency attenuation of air at large distances (large halls and open venues) - both in passive and DSP active PA speakers.
In passive crossovers always there is a resistor in the tweeter arm filter - simply because high-frequency drivers are louder than woofers. Look at the schematic of the JBL SRX815 passive crossover (page 4):
https://elektrotanya.com/jbl_srx815_rev_a_1216_sm.pdf/download.html
Resistors R2 and R5 "waste energy" in order to attenuate the much louder high-frequency compression driver, to mach the 15" midwoofer output.

And final words about the use of PA speakers in home - almost all PA speakers are lacking the bottom end, even the big 15" coffins - that is the nature of those professional speakers. What do you think - why there are numerous 18" or 21" subwoofers in every rock concert?

 

[airborne]

That is why I said in post#16 "sound pressure level of PN decreases about -3dB per octave (and music on average too or more)".

In the high-frequency range, the spectrum of music drops more steeply than that of pink noise (PN). There are "isolated" high peaks in the high frequency range of music signals (e.g. percussion), but RMS of the average music signal is "lower" (than PN) and therefore the crest factor (CF) is higher:

View attachment 194176
Source: Long-term Average Spectrum in Popular Music and its Relation to the Level of the Percussion (with additional content by me)

This is especially true if you look at only certain frequency ranges, for example only one octave. In the high frequency range RMS will decrease (per octave range), but the peaks will remain unchanged high.

Exactly this effect is mapped by the linked M-Noise. For PN, the crest factor is about 12dB almost independent of the selected frequency range (there is PN with other CF, but 12dB is standard).
With M-Noise the peaks remain the same "height" over the frequency range, but RMS decreases towards the treble.

So M-Noise is less stressful for tweeters than PN is, because it is closer to a "real" music signal.

This justifies the considerations about the power handling of tweeters using PN in post#16.

oh oh !

our German friend went all scientific on me !

so actually i was looking at this very issue maybe 2 or 3 months ago where Adobe Audition was showing music rolling off at a fairly steep rate towards treble but when i looked at this chart:

the rolloff was far more gentle.

i stole this chart from another forum ( very old thread ) and rather than link there i will just copy the text that went along with it

I was curious about the average spectral power distribution for various types of music, so I hooked the headphone output of my tablet (playing Spotify 320kbs MP3) up to the line input of my laptop and used REW's RTA at 1/48 octave 32k samples with averaging set to Forever. Then I went through some playlists of various genres, playing a few second of music at about 10 roughly equally spaced places through each song. I moved through the playlist until I had accumulated about 800 spectra that were averaged, so probably 15 to 25 pieces of music per genre. With that many spectra averaged, the average spectrum had come close to steady state and wasn't changing much.

All the spectra were taken at the same volume setting. They are displayed with 1/6 octave smoothing to make them more legible.

I did check that everything was working properly by looking at Sheffield Labs Uncorrelated Pink Noise 20Hz to 20kHz and it is flat.

Things to note:

1) The Dance Mix is my own playlist, with pop and EDM that I like, and it is the only one of the pop music styles that isn't compressed right up to the limit in the 500 to 5000 Hz range. That's probably why I like those songs (on average).

2) There are slight differences in the amount of bass. Country peaks at 60 Hz before falling. 50 Hz has maximum power across many genres, and only hip hop seems to have significant energy at 30 Hz. Orchestra doesn't have much bass on average, but it is deep (flat down to 20Hz), probably from low frequency, impulsive bass drum hits.

3) There are huge differences in the amount of compression/crest factor/headroom between pop, jazz, and orchestral.

4) Piano doesn't have much high frequency content.

5) It seems that MP3 may have a maximum high frequency content between 10kHz and 20kHz, or everybody is using the same drum and cymbal synth, because all the high frequency pop music has the same limit and slope up high.

Anyway, it seemed like it might be a useful exercise for thinking about how much power handling is required for various driver and crossover combinations. It is also useful to decide how much bass extension you need for the type of music you listen to.

so i went to Adobe support forum and demanded an explanation LOL

they couldn't answer my question ... then i actually read what his post said ( previously i just looked at his charts ) and saw that when he used pink noise it came out flat. i then put pink noise into Adobe Audition and it showed 10 db / oct rolloff.

this is because pink noise is constant power per octave but 10 db / oct rolloff in power per frequency.

so the chart you posted is how Adobe represents it but if you represented it as REW does it then actually pink noise is completely FLAT ( horizontal ) with frequency ( 0 db / oct ) ...

as you correctly point out music actually rolls off steeper than pink noise, as we can see from his charts where pink noise would have been flat but music actually drops about 10 db from 100 hz to 10 khz ...

but what it drops in average level it picks up in crest factor ...

average power handling of a speaker is mostly a direct function of voice coil surface area ( circumference X winding depth ) ... for a typical dome tweeter the winding depth is about 2.5 mm ... compared to about 25 millimeter winding depth for a typical 15" low frequency driver.

so a conventional dome tweeter has 1/4 the VC circumference and 1/10 the winding depth of a full size low frequency driver ... or about 1/40th the thermal ( average ) power handling ...

additionally a 15" prosound woofer is about 95db efficient whereas a tweeter is 89 db so about 6db less ...

40X power = 16db + 6db efficiency drop that's 22db less average output capacity for a dome tweeter than a 15" prosound woofer.

does music drop off by more or less than 22 db from ~ 50 hz to ~ 5 khz ? it looks to me like it only drops off by 10 db or so ...

thus the tweeter will blow first ...

and that's why you don't see 19mm dome tweeters in a system with a 15" prosound woofer ...

also i believe latest AES guidelines call for using 12 db crest factor noise to measure equipment above some frequency ( i think it's like 200 hz or so ) and 6 db crest factor noise to measure equipment below that frequency. so tweeter power ratings are ALREADY inflated. nobody measures tweeter power using sinewaves or it would be like 10 watts. and consumer level drivers don't use AES ratings at all so when you see "100 watt" tweeter it means nothing at all - it probably means the entire speaker can take 100 watts without blowing the tweeter.

when you look at AES rated drivers with similar Voice Coil dimensions ( such as Beyma CP 09 ) to a consumer dome tweeter it is rated at just 15W AES ! ! ! and this is a prosound driver with 1" voice coil. a consumer driver with 3/4" VC will certainly have LOWER power handling, so about 10W AES ! ! ! well ... i suppose ferrofluid could help but ferrofluid boils at about 1/4 the temperature at which former melts so logically it will help with power compression more than with power handling ...

by comparison top subwoofer drivers handle 2,000W AES ...

PS: i think our German friend added me to "ignore" because the Forum asked me if i wanted to see his post before displaying it ...

I deal with Germans all the time when it comes to debating Engineering subjects - they are smart but ridiculously uptight - no sense of humor

supposedly if you ask a Mercedes EQS to tell you a joke it says " i'm sorry, i don't know any jokes, i'm German " ... which is actually funny LOL

 

[airborne]

I do not see compression in Erin's data for bookshelf speakers at those levels. Usually that happens north of 96 dB, not 80's and certainly not 70's.

maybe he meant compressing peaks due to non-linearity of motor and suspension, rather than thermal compression.

Klippel ( no escaping Ze Germans in Engineering ) published a paper where they studied nonlinearity and compression of tweeters ...

I'm just here to Troll but if you want hard data you may be able to find it here:

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_migrated/content_uploads/Large_signal_performance_of_tweeters_01.pdf

note it is called "LARGE SIGNAL performance of tweeters" as opposed to "small signal" which is what TS parameters are.

 

[airborne]

Don Keele's CBT


View attachment 194310

the way he uses a mirror shows he has or at some point in his life had a brain.

Dr. Brown also clearly was able to think in terms of symmetry.

i find that people of average IQ don't understand symmetry.

average people think intelligence is a function of speed at which somebody thinks ... this is why they use the word "slow" to mean stupid.

reality is that cockroaches and rats think faster than humans because neural impulses travel at a certain speed ( assuming a healthy neuron ) and the smaller the brain the physically shorter the distances the impulse needs to travel. so actually less intelligent creatures think faster.

but that's sort of the essence of Dunning Kruger - the stupider somebody is the smarter they think they are. they believe they are quick thinkers when in reality they never thought in their life at all. they are just reacting like animals. actual thinking takes time. complex ideas can take decades to develop.

intelligence is ability to understand complex concepts and use them.

speed of thinking is a measure of health, not intelligence.

young people think faster because they are healthier, but many of them are idiots.

of course with age at a certain point you run into the issue where different neurons work at different speeds and everything is out of phase and the brain no longer works ...

sorry for going off topic but actually my "solution" i invented yesterday for line arrays is using a curved acoustical mirror at the top of the array to turn a line array into a virtual upside down J-Array or progressive array ... so it's only partially off topic.

 

[airborne]

You don't have a clue

thank you for letting us know how you feel Vova ...

cymbal peak is 130 db at the position of drummer's head

to reproduce 130 db @ listening position ( 6 feet ) a 19 mm dome tweeter would need 50,000 watts of power ...

would i WANT to listen to cymbal crash at 130 db ? no. i don't want to be deaf. but i would want my speaker to be able to do it ...

the line array i designed actually CAN hit 130 db @ 1 meter ( using 12 X 100db / watt ribbons that can take peaks over 1KW ) but unfortunately that design went way over budget and i don't really see a way for it to happen ... but i will continue developing the design anyway until it is finished.

Celestion Axiperiodic could of course also reproduce a Cymbal at full scale SPL with a single driver because it is essentially a 7" horn loaded Titanium cymbal and because it can hit over 130 decibels and covers about the same frequency range ...

none of these are coincidences, but it takes a certain IQ level to understand the relationships and if a person doesn't have that IQ level these things can not be explained to them even in a century ... as the saying goes - when the student is ready the master shall appear.

the student isn't ready. and likely never will be. however the master ( me ) will indeed appear for those who can demonstrate that they are worthy students.

it would be cheaper to use the Axiperiodic than to build a ribbon array but with a 2" throat and 1.5 foot deep horn beaming would be severe ...

i just feel like Axiperiodic is really an extended midrange that would maybe be brilliant for vocals or speech but the top end rolls off too much for my liking ( albeit in an extremely well controlled fashion ) whereas Ribbons just keep going and going ...

Axiperiodic is still subject to all the same fundamental limitations as any other titanium compression driver they are just managed with next level of expertise due to the computer models used to optimize it ...

but Ribbons simply don't have those limitations to begin with ...

Ribbons of course have their own limitations, but i posit that for home use they are easier to overcome ...

You don't have a clue

I think Vova needs some rest. Going to go ahead and put him on "ignore" list.

A person who spent half a decade recording music and still doesn't understand that music is recorded bright because of the Harman curve applied during playback ... well, let's just say i can't think of a bigger waste of time than trying to teach such a person anything.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

cymbal peak is 130 db at the position of drummer's head
to reproduce 130 db @ listening position ( 6 feet ) a 19 mm dome tweeter would need 50,000 watts of power ...
would i WANT to listen to cymbal crash at 130 db ? no. i don't want to be deaf. but i would want my speaker to be able to do it ...

But why??? Why would you want your speakers to be able to do 130dB at 6 feet in your room???
You are admitting that you will not listen at 130dB!
So?!

the line array i designed actually CAN hit 130 db @ 1 meter ( using 12 X 100db / watt ribbons that can take peaks over 1KW ) but unfortunately that design went way over budget and i don't really see a way for it to happen ... but i will continue developing the design anyway until it is finished.

I designed and build my first line array in 2009, it hits continuous 140 dB/1m with 6 modules (in the picture). It uses two 10" midbass drivers and two compression drivers coupled to line-array horn, per module. Every module is active, with 1250 Wrms onboard amplification with DSP - for a total of 6x1250W = 7.5kWrms per side, or 15kW left+right. It is still alive, running and kicking.

Back to the 3/4" tweeters - they can and will bring cymbal crash in your home, at almost unbearable levels. Same SPL level at the listening position is subjectively different in a living room with 0.5 seconds reverberation time and in large concert hall with 2 seconds reverberation time.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

A person who spent half a decade recording music and still doesn't understand that music is recorded bright because of the Harman curve applied during playback ... well, let's just say i can't think of a bigger waste of time than trying to teach such a person anything.

"Harman curve applied during playback"?
Down-tilting Harman curve is the result of the (average) room acoustic plus perfectly flat (not bright!) loudspeaker frequency response reproducing perfectly flat recording (not bright!) mixed with perfectly flat monitors (not bright!).

Because you put me on the ignore list, you will not learn anything from my last two posts. Maybe some other ASR member is willing to copy (text only) and paste my last two posts in his own post?

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

How do modern mid-tweeters compare to the much venerated SEAS HO87 tweeter?

Back to the original question. Many years ago I made big floorstander with 10" RCF midbass crossed at 1.5 kHz to Audax 034XO midtweeter. Ample of bass, very good midrange, but with "character" of its own (distortion peak), very good highs.
Modern 35-mm tweeters are scarce, I am aware of only two:

- Seas TC35C002 appears to have similar sonic distortion signature as Audax, but off-axis frequency response above 8 kHz is worse.

- ScanSpeak D3806/820000 has much lower distortion than both, but off-axis frequency response above 8 kHz is similar to Seas.

 

[Ericglo]

Bliesma has 34mm domes.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

BlieSMa T34B-4 is fine tweeter, but it must be crossed higher than 1.5 kHz, so we can not call it a mid-tweeter, per OP definition. Seas T35C002 and ScanSpeak D3806/820000 are true mid-tweeters - they can be crossed even lower than 1.5 kHz.

 

[fineMen]

Because you put me on the ignore list, ...

Ignorance is strength ;-)

This one I tested myself:

Test Peerless DX25TG09-04 (XD-270 F/4) am Waveguide

Der Vifa/Peerless XD-270 F/4 wurde unter Zuhilfenahme einer CNC-gefrästen Adapterplatte mit dem Waveguide WG-300 von Monacor kombiniert.

heissmann-acoustics.de

It gave me goosebumps, genius! What else do You need? If it wasn't only about talking, how do You say in English, "theorising"?

Cross over at 1,2kHz and done.

Prob with 3/4" drivers is their wide dispersion, which makes less accentuated'crashing cymbals'.

I listen rarely above 76dB average. I've got neighbours to greet once in a while on the stairs, ask for a favour occasionally. And not the least, I feel better to not make my ears sing in silence ... despite I've got regular access @home to a full fleshed p/a-capable speaker set, very much like JBL's M2 ... with subs ...

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Yes, I concur - 1" tweeter in a waveguide is as capable as "naked" 35 mm "midtweeter" (and better, in my opinion).

 

[fineMen]

... (and better, in my opinion).

Off axis measurements are shown up to 90° in 15° steps. I don't know of any better specimen on the market.

Additionally I measured intermodulation distortion, as it isn't covered on that site or anywhere else. In short: excellent. Up to reasonable levels, just before the coil gets roasted with that steady signal around 96dB @1m or so. Multiple tones at once, single low tone plus various voice tones, most if not all the IM I saw was from my microphone @-50dB. Not even the 2nd harmonic's non-linearity got through, very much alike many p/a-horns I tested before.

Without waveguide , though, IM rises significantly, HD likewise, and the power-limited max level plummets to a mere 110dB peak -- just kidding. With waveguide this driver makes me LoL at 'diamond' tweeters and their pretentious siblings.

It is not about what You put in, but what comes out. ( The tweeter market is a one-armed bandit. )

Regarding the SEAS HO87, I had it myself. I purchased on ebay just because of its speculative merits, big, AlNiCo, you name it. It didn't compete well to say the least. Nearly every contemporary offer from SEAS or Tymphany (Peerless/..) outperforms it in nearly every aspect. Despite its sentimental values, it wasn't a keeper.

 

[airborne]

Ignorance is strength ;-)

This one I tested myself:

Test Peerless DX25TG09-04 (XD-270 F/4) am Waveguide

Der Vifa/Peerless XD-270 F/4 wurde unter Zuhilfenahme einer CNC-gefrästen Adapterplatte mit dem Waveguide WG-300 von Monacor kombiniert.

heissmann-acoustics.de

It gave me goosebumps, genius! What else do You need? If it wasn't only about talking, how do You say in English, "theorising"?

Cross over at 1,2kHz and done.

Prob with 3/4" drivers is their wide dispersion, which makes less accentuated'crashing cymbals'.

I listen rarely above 76dB average. I've got neighbours to greet once in a while on the stairs, ask for a favour occasionally. And not the least, I feel better to not make my ears sing in silence ... despite I've got regular access @home to a full fleshed p/a-capable speaker set, very much like JBL's M2 ... with subs ...

you listen at 76 db average ?

most cars have background noise level of about 70 db *before* anybody even speaks let alone turns on music.

you better be wearing earplugs in the car and not using the stereo.

no let me guess - you probably ride a bicycle.

why would anybody need a car or a house ?

silly Americans !

"safe" level for 8 HOURS A DAY is 85 db ... the rock concert of 100 db is actually safe so long as you are only exposed to it occasionally - that's why train operators have to wear hearing protection and passengers do not - exposure time matters.

since you live in an apartment i assume you are in a city. you probably have about 30 db background noise ... and you listen at 76 db ... so your signal to noise ratio is at most 46 db ... yet you probably sneer at electronics that "only" have a signal to noise ratio of 70 db ...

you probably tell people who listen to such inferior electronics that they are deaf ... when they in fact have better signal to noise ratio than you do because they listen louder. they listen to their 70 db SNR electronics at 100 db so they get the full 70 db of SNR while you get 46 db ... that's just under 8 bits worth ... which is JUST SLIGHTLY WORSE THAN TELEPHONE QUALITY

wow truly you are an audiophile ...

trolling aside on average i don't listen to music at all. like right now no music is playing. average doesn't matter. what matters is that SOMETIMES i want to turn it up. it is irrelevant whether somebody listens on average at 70 db or 90 db - speakers must be designed for the highest output level they will ever see, even if they spend 99% of their life completely turned off.

imagine if car brakes ( okay bicycle brakes ) were designed to only stop you from average speed ? we have to engineer things for worst possible scenario.

the 100 db rock concert level is not excessive - it is optimal. speakers used at such concerts can go over 130 decibels, they are regulated by law to stay below 100 db because that was determined the right level ( for occasional exposure that is - the level would have to be lower for more frequent exposure, such as 85 db for 8 hours a day exposure typical for workplace ).

a concert however lasts several hours an the level is constant overtime. at home you may choose to only turn the volume up for maybe 30 seconds on your favorite part of a song, so you can safely turn it up much higher than 100 db so long as it is only for a short time.

again, average level overtime is what counts for hearing damage but speakers must survive MAXIMUM levels. and the louder you turn them up the higher your signal to noise ratio should be but of course small speakers like 19mm domes will begin to distort and sacrifice signal to noise ratio to THD and IMD right at the time when they need to be the cleanest ...

when you cross your 19 mm dome at 1.2 khz and then crank it to 110 DB if it doesn't blow up completely you will be listening to straight up distortion precisely at a time when you will actually have a high enough signal level to be able to take advantage of high signal to noise ratio if your system was capable of it but it isn't ... only your electronics are capable of it but not your speakers, unless you invest a few millions in an Anechoic Chamber to listen in that is.

i'm starting to understand what the other guy meant when he said that this is a wrong forum to try to explain these things to people.

i won't reply to this thread anymore. it's hopeless.

i want you to be happy with your 19mm dome, your apartment, bicycle and EU dictatorship.

putting you on ignore as well.

every forum is really just a cult where people who share common delusions come together to pat each other on the back and reassure each other that it's really everybody on the outside that is delusional ...

people on this forum build HEADPHONE amplifiers that are physically 10 times larger than an amplifier capable of blowing up their 19mm dome SPEAKERS ... but because you ALL do this you don't need to face the absurdity of what you're doing because you have each other's back. you can drown out the voice of anybody trying to bring you to your senses by simply droning and repeating each other ad infinitum. and since you don't use intelligence and just passively accumulate opinions through repetition the more time you spend on here the more convinced you are that you are correct - which is what you wanted in the first place - confirmation and validation, not truth.

this is why having your own forum is priceless even if you're the only one there. i would rather be talking to myself than to a brick in a zombie wall.

 

[fineMen]

you listen at 76 db average ?

most cars have background noise level of about 70 db *before* anybody even speaks let alone turns on music.

you better be wearing earplugs in the car and not using the stereo.

no let me guess - you probably ride a bicycle.

Ye, I'm still faster with my non-electrified bike. On the other hand, my real bimmer is that easy to my ears by itself, it is German, sigh!

Normal conversation is told to average at about 60dB something. I'm a social animal ... as said. 76dB would be quite a fierce argument, me thinks.

As said, the tweeter I recommended for further evaluation by yourselves , that would even without waveguide peak at 110dB--each. But sure, my compression drivers do a good job too, chasing neighbours' cats out of my flower field. As said.