Trinnov Altitude / JBL SDP-75

[Dimifoot]

OK, thank you. Isn't weighting of 1 practically no weighting? Right now my one position is weighted 100, natch, and I was thinking of doing a little box as you said (and similar to what Dirac Live had me doing) so nine positions total. My room was heavily treated and frankly the extra positions did not buy much; MLP a little worse and sides not much better, but I have removed treatments to shove the new speakers in so plan to do a few more positions. I was thinking of weighting the "box" a little lower, maybe 66% to 75%.

Weighing is now done by simple numbers like 1,2,4 -not as percentages. 2 stands for two times more important than 1.

I suggest that you don’t over do it with the MLP. It sounds better if it’s more evenly distributed.

One of the problems with this thing is that I could spend the rest of my life tweaking and trying different things...

Done that already

 

[DonH56]

I know, at least for bass tweaking it is a great thing that the Altitude has this feature. It would be great if you could compare a caibration with loaded PEQ's and without. What changes does Harman recommend?

They have a list and my dealer helped me program them. I am not sure they are public, but they increase resolution, raise the IIR upper limit frequency, few others I forget. They also have you load the Harman target curves, of course. There may be others they do, I haven't had time to set up a meeting with my dealer to walk through them yet. Normally he and I would be doing more, but I wanted to get it going when I had a day off, and my work hours are crazy lately (better than the alternative, but sometimes I wonder...) Then the whole COVID-19 bit; my wife works at a hospital and has been exposed at least once but did not catch it; my son is a counselor and debating whether to come for Mother's Day on Sunday out of fear he may unknowingly give it to us or vice-versa. Crazy times.

You could just hit compute again, that should apply the changes.

That's what I did, but am not sure it gave me the same result as re-running the calibration. In fact it did not, but I was mucking around, so may have gotten things out of order or missed a setting. I suspect pilot error but once I got my three basic cals done I decided to quit for now and wait until I have more time to compare them, plus hook hook up with my dealer to review. Next week was the plan, but that is "my" week on-site at work so it may be the week after.

I have done some calibrations together with the Trinnov team - they always turned on bass management only AFTER the calibration. They btw never used the new Wizard, but did everything manually. That's how I do it as well.

I started manually, since the Wizard is never mentioned in the manual, but I couldn't get a cal (crest factor too low). I found the Wizard and it worked but all it does is walk you through the same process, though it does have you set bass management first. There is a flow chart in the manual showing it before the Optimizer and it seems they just followed the flow. Other references agree with you that is does not matter. As for calibration, I have done it manually many times since, so I think the first time I must have had something wrong on my end.

(Don't tell anyone, but one other time I had the same problem, and noticed that I was on the wrong input, and more than one meter was flickering, which should have been a clue... Stoopid Don Trick.)

 

[DonH56]

Weighing is now done by simple numbers like 1,2,4 -not as percentages. 2 stands for two times more important than 1.

I suggest that you don’t over do it with the MLP. It sounds better if it’s more evenly distributed.

Done that already

Hmmm... Either I misread it, or the manual is wrong (found a few other bugs so the latter is possible). I will try other positions; so far, I've had just enough time to get it set up for one. With all the absorbers I had before, multiple positions didn't make much difference with Dirac Live, but now I've less treatment and the Optimizer so need to try again. I am familiar with how SBIR and comb filter effects etc. make a single measurement very suspect.

Thanks for all your help, and @Olli too!

 

[Dimifoot]

Hmmm... Either I misread it, or the manual is wrong

Neither.
It was mentioned in the Trinnov webinar a couple of weeks ago. I know what’s in the manual, but they said that after the software update it’s done like this.

 

[DonH56]

Neither.
It was mentioned in the Trinnov webinar a couple of weeks ago. I know what’s in the manual, but they said that after the software update it’s done like this.

Lovely. For reference (not you, for myself and others), the manual says this:

The “Weight” column allows you to set a weight to each measurement, from 0 to 100, to emphasize, for example, some​

central points. You can bypass some points by setting their weight to 0, which can be useful in case one of the points​

have failed the calibration but you don’t want to perform a calibration again.​

​

The weight can be adjusted after a calibration; you don’t have to run a complete calibration to take weight changes into​

account, just to press once the “Compute” button.​

I set my single position to 100 for now, will have to look again.

 

[GXAlan]

Is there a list of speakers that Harman officially supports with dedicated EQ?

 

[Flak]

I came from Dirac Live in an Emotiva XMC-1. The new SDP-55, not -75, uses Dirac Live and is not a Trinnov platform (Arcam, maybe? Not tracking...)

There is a fair amount of confusion, some of which they created themselves with terminology, with the new Dirac Live bass scheme. Conventional bass management known to (most) all that sends LF energy from the other speaker to the sub is implemented by the AVP/AVR outside Dirac Live. What Dirac Live's new scheme does, as I understand it, is to spread bass among speakers in the room that can handle it and align them all to provide a more enveloping bass field and (hopefully) avoid the deep nulls from room modes and SBIR.

Trinnov claims to have better bass management for multiple subs but I have insufficient experience to judge. I did let it optimize my four subs so eventually will measure and see how it did.

Yes, my bad... wrong model number.
Dirac Bass Control is different and replaces the AVR's bass management taking control of the crossover,
it addresses the issues caused by the interactions among the subwoofers, here a measurement by a StormAudio owner:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/dirac-live-with-bass-control.2284463/page-3#post-27969211
as well as the interactions between the subs and the main speakers.
I don't want to derail this thread, if interested in details they can be found in the previous link.

 

[Olli]

Yes, my bad... wrong model number.
Dirac Bass Control is different and replaces the AVR's bass management taking control of the crossover,
it addresses the issues caused by the interactions among the subwoofers, here a measurement by a StormAudio owner:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/dirac-live-with-bass-control.2284463/page-3#post-27969211
as well as the interactions between the subs and the main speakers.
I don't want to derail this thread, if interested in details they can be found in the previous link.

That looks pretty good! Do you know how many subs were used in the measured setup?

 

[QMuse]

That looks pretty good! Do you know how many subs were used in the measured setup?

No subs. It is about matching the phase between L and R speaker to avoid LF cancellation because of difference in phase between them. The same principle would apply to multiple subs though.

 

[Flak]

Maybe I'm tired even if it's not that late

 

[Thomas savage]

Yes, my bad... wrong model number.
Dirac Bass Control is different and replaces the AVR's bass management taking control of the crossover,
it addresses the issues caused by the interactions among the subwoofers, here a measurement by a StormAudio owner:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/dirac-live-with-bass-control.2284463/page-3#post-27969211
as well as the interactions between the subs and the main speakers.
I don't want to derail this thread, if interested in details they can be found in the previous link.

We can always start a different thread , more the merrier.

 

[Balle Clorin]

The issue with these h/w devices is the number of filter taps available that limits the the effectiveness of their low frequency correction.
...he miniDSP 2x4 HD product datasheet talks about 4096 taps. ,,,,,
If I remember, the Trinnov has 4096 taps (better than miniDSP 2x4) with a maximum filter length of 100ms. I b...t.

Can you please clarify 4096 or 4096, MiniDSP /Trinnov.
By the may I am running my Trinnov Amethyst at 300ms FIR time, after advise from Trinnov, what does that give in Hz resolution? 1.67Hz? or something?. I am uneducated to this tap stuff..

 

[DonH56]

Yes, my bad... wrong model number.
Dirac Bass Control is different and replaces the AVR's bass management taking control of the crossover,
it addresses the issues caused by the interactions among the subwoofers, here a measurement by a StormAudio owner:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/dirac-live-with-bass-control.2284463/page-3#post-27969211
as well as the interactions between the subs and the main speakers.
I don't want to derail this thread, if interested in details they can be found in the previous link.

It would be great if you started a dedicated thread here about it. Since so many AVRs have managed to choke on integrating multiple subs and bass in general, it is a feature well worth touting and discussing. Just not on my Trinnov thread... Frankly, it is one of the biggest reasons I was considering sticking with Dirac Live, but the deal on my SDP-75 was pretty good, and I got tired of waiting on Emotiva.

 

[DonH56]

Is there a list of speakers that Harman officially supports with dedicated EQ?

Here's what is on my list:

The M80XC is not there, which makes sense as an outdoor speaker, but is what I am likely to add for heights if I go that route.

 

[Olli]

No subs. It is about matching the phase between L and R speaker to avoid LF cancellation because of difference in phase between them. The same principle would apply to multiple subs though.

True. My bad. Still looks good :-D
@Flak - any measurements available wrt to the new Dirac BM feature?

 

[Olli]

Here's what is on my list:
View attachment 62475

The M80XC is not there, which makes sense as an outdoor speaker, but is what I am likely to add for heights if I go that route.

 

[Olli]

Cool. I have 2 705s, a SCL-3 as Center and 6 C783 in my ceiling (LR are TAD CE1s). So it would be really great to see what the effect of loading AEQs is! I know I am repeating myself, but I couldn’t find out before what speakers were supported.

 

[GXAlan]

Here's what is on my list:
[snip]
The M80XC is not there, which makes sense as an outdoor speaker, but is what I am likely to add for heights if I go that route.

To simplify searching, I've re-written it in text format here: W890, M106, C208, M2, JBL 4367, Voice2, F208, SCL-3, LSR705i, W783, LSR708i, M16, SAM1HF/2LF, C205, SCL-2, W990, SCL-4, C783, Salon2, Studio2.

The inclusion of the M16 is interesting because it means they expect someone with a SDP-75 to consider using the M16 to fill out the channels. It supports the measurements here which show the M16 performing exceptionally well.

It doesn't have any of the Studio 5's (which were once JBL Synthesis), the HDI lineup, nor the Everest/K2, S3900/S4700. None of the ScreenArray Pro JBL's either.

 

[QMuse]

True. My bad. Still looks good :-D
@Flak - any measurements available wrt to the new Dirac BM feature?

Phase alignement between speakers IS a BM feature.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Inspired by Mitchos post on number of taps,and his and Olli's Trinnon/Audiolense/JBL/ FR plots i tried to check the effects of number of taps (or FIR msec length) in my Trinnov Amethyst.

1. First I checked the predicted(Trinnov) and actual results (REW) with the standard settings, and found a quite good match.=upper plots
2. Then I Increased number of FIR taps from 4800 to 14400 by increasing FIR length from 100 to 300ms ( Trinnov says 300 is OK, and that 600 will crash), and increased number of IIR filters from 10 to 30 and increased max Hz from 150 to 200. I also allowed more negative correction( -10 to -15db).
The results seem quite good, (bottom 2 quadrants) when I have the opportunity I will measure the results in REW, but for now I have to trust the predictions, sorry for the busy graph, but I like to make notes like this to keep track.

zoomed prediction