Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

[antcollinet]

Not sure why the reports made right here in ASR aren't enough for you. There's enough indication in these posts from various forum members to be able to say: there appears to be a problem with the PA5's reliability. There is a non-trivial number of reports of PA5 failure.

The main seller of the PA5 on Amazon (USA), Aoshida HiFi Us, has a whopping total of 34 reviews. Re: the PA5, I doubt very much that Topping sells many thousands of units. The number of purchasers is, I suspect, relatively small, particularly when compared to mainstream amp manufacturers like Yamaha.

So I don't find it that surprising that the internet isn't abuzz with talk of the Topping PA5. It's a niche product for a niche audience.

Topping needs to be selling many 1000's - at least 10'sK, probably 100'sK in order to make money at this price level. Sure here, we've had quite a number of reports of a consistent problem. But we simply have NO idea whether that represents a normal failure rate of around 1% or below, or an unacceptable level of 10%+. We DO NOT have the data. Only speculation.

 

[Stinius]

"reale" Is that French?

Thank you for noticing me that I spelled one word wrong.
It should be "Real" in English
"Reale" is Norwegian, but means the same.
I guess that you agree in the rest of my post since you only focuse on the spelling of one word.

I see that some have problems understanding my post.
I'm not surprised.

 

[REK2575]

Topping needs to be selling many 1000's - at least 10'sK, probably 100'sK in order to make money at this price level. Sure here, we've had quite a number of reports of a consistent problem. But we simply have NO idea whether that represents a normal failure rate of around 1% or below, or an unacceptable level of 10%+. We DO NOT have the data. Only speculation.

Sorry, this is not convincing. There's no way Topping is selling 100s of thousands of these units. And the pricepoint for the PA5 is pretty obviously inflated at $350. I cannot believe the profit margin on the PA5 is razor thin at this price. I suspect it's pretty healthy. I have a Yamaha S301 that cost me a similar amount, and there I could believe Yamaha needs to sell high volume to make a profit. The PA5 is a toy by comparison. My first thought when I unpackaged my PA5 was, 'I paid $350 for this?' For a miniature desktop amp with an external power supply? I didn't keep it long and was glad to get my $350 back.

So yes, we're speculating. Maybe @JohnYang could pop in and give us some hard data and address the issues at hand. But he's obviously too busy hawking Topping's other new shiny toys, like the similarly overpriced LA90.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Sorry, this is not convincing. There's no way Topping is selling 100s of thousands of these units. And the pricepoint for the PA5 is pretty obviously inflated at $350. I cannot believe the profit margin on the PA5 is razor thin at this price. I suspect it's pretty healthy. I have a Yamaha S301 that cost me a similar amount, and there I could believe Yamaha needs to sell high volume to make a profit. The PA5 is a toy by comparison. My first thought when I unpackaged my PA5 was, 'I paid $350 for this?' For a miniature desktop amp with an external power supply? I didn't keep it long and was glad to get my $350 back.

So yes, we're speculating. Maybe @JohnYang could pop in and give us some hard data and address the issues at hand. But he's obviously too busy hawking Topping's other new shiny toys, like the similarly overpriced LA90.

What does size have to do with anything? I get it when it’s Class A or B, but for D?

I just repaired a class A. The heat those Mossfets put out us insane. Even for a five watt amp. When you’re running at about 20% efficiency, most the energy is going to heat. So you need big heat sinks, beefy construction. But the actual electronics aren’t any larger than what could easily fit in the topping case. But we’ve come to associate big amps with quality.

Class Ds are super efficient by comparison, at around 90% for Hypex, I believe. This means you only need to manage losses of around 10 percent. Your thermal constraints are less, meaning no need for as much cooling. Drop the heat sinks and you can suddenly do so much more with a small form factor. That doesn’t make it a toy. It makes it efficient.

I just replaced my 2010 Mac Pro with a 2020 M1 mini. Except for 3D, it is two to four times more powerful. This also was made possible by controlling the thermal needs of the electronics. The mini and the PA5 are not toys.

Which is not to say Topping didn’t push the envelop for thermal issues.

 

[B&WTube]

Sorry, this is not convincing. There's no way Topping is selling 100s of thousands of these units. And the pricepoint for the PA5 is pretty obviously inflated at $350. I cannot believe the profit margin on the PA5 is razor thin at this price. I suspect it's pretty healthy. I have a Yamaha S301 that cost me a similar amount, and there I could believe Yamaha needs to sell high volume to make a profit. The PA5 is a toy by comparison. My first thought when I unpackaged my PA5 was, 'I paid $350 for this?' For a miniature desktop amp with an external power supply? I didn't keep it long and was glad to get my $350 back.

Agreed- they are making great margins. You can buy small run boutique stuff and come in less (what I have decided to do after seeing this mess). Once back in stock- a JLE board and Connex PSU is $250 (or MicroAudio for $55more) , and you have a better product that has gone through countless iterations of development and better parts. These are small run, from different venders and still cheaper. Large runs in a Chinese factory should have great margins.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Agreed- they are making great margins. You can buy small run boutique stuff and come in less (what I have decided to do after seeing this mess). Once back in stock- a JLE board and Connex PSU is $250 (or MicroAudio for $55more) , and you have a better product that has gone through countless iterations of development and better parts. These are small run, from different venders and still cheaper. Large runs in a Chinese factory should have great margins.

The JLE boards look interesting. Have you seen any measurements of them or know brands that use them?

 

[Walter]

The JLE boards look interesting. Have you seen any measurements of them or know brands that use them?

JL ELectronics Sylph-D200 Amplifier Module Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JL Electronic's (JLE) Sylph-D200 stereo amplifier module built on top of TI's TPA3255 amplifier IC. Depending on the configuration you pick, the module costs US $130 to $170. You can read more about it here...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Paco De Lucia]

Sorry, this is not convincing. There's no way Topping is selling 100s of thousands of these units. And the pricepoint for the PA5 is pretty obviously inflated at $350. I cannot believe the profit margin on the PA5 is razor thin at this price. I suspect it's pretty healthy. I have a Yamaha S301 that cost me a similar amount, and there I could believe Yamaha needs to sell high volume to make a profit. The PA5 is a toy by comparison. My first thought when I unpackaged my PA5 was, 'I paid $350 for this?' For a miniature desktop amp with an external power supply? I didn't keep it long and was glad to get my $350 back.

So yes, we're speculating. Maybe @JohnYang could pop in and give us some hard data and address the issues at hand. But he's obviously too busy hawking Topping's other new shiny toys, like the similarly overpriced LA90.

I wouldn't say it's over priced. What we have here is a series of almost unique products in the history of hifi. Equipment that has been designed to measure extremely well. Not common in ether the professional or consumer audio market. only really a thing in lab instruments. So these new pre amps and little switching amps are a new market.

 

[Harryharryharry]

Is it safe to leave the PA5 on all the time? Obviously there's a fair few people having issues but I had read some theories turning on/off might be a bigger risk.

Any guidance from someone with knowledge on amps would be ace. Thanks.

 

[Paco De Lucia]

has anyone counted the separate users on ASR that have had issues ? like an earlier poster said, all the problems seem to have coalesced here at ASR. we should do a poll, i know highly inaccurate but its a start

 

[MCH]

Paco! Estás vivo!!!

Here is your poll

Poll for Topping PA5 owners only please.

Poll for PA5 owners to report product defects. Discussion for any solutions. I think it would be useful to get a handle on some numbers to estimate just how wide spread the issues are. Addendum: Here is Topping's response to the PA5 issues...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Rottmannash]

Thank you for noticing me that I spelled one word wrong.
It should be "Real" in English
"Reale" is Norwegian, but means the same.
I guess that you agree in the rest of my post since you only focuse on the spelling of one word.

I see that some have problems understanding my post.
I'm not surprised.

actually no, I didn't agree with the rest of your post but your tone persuaded me to comment on your odd spelling-childish on my part, I know but...

 

[pma]

Hi Pavel
Well said and as you say "As of the current status of tests, they are close to pointless" In my opinion they are not close to pointless, but absulutally pointless. 1kHz SINAD is as meaningless as you can get it when measuring an amplifier.
Let us see some reale measurements.

All the best
Stein

Hi Stein,
Nice to see you here.

Cheers,
Pavel

 

[IPunchCholla]

Agreed- they are making great margins. You can buy small run boutique stuff and come in less (what I have decided to do after seeing this mess). Once back in stock- a JLE board and Connex PSU is $250 (or MicroAudio for $55more) , and you have a better product that has gone through countless iterations of development and better parts. These are small run, from different venders and still cheaper. Large runs in a Chinese factory should have great margins.

I can't say I know much about pricing in consumer electronics, but this is backwards from how you need to think as a business. Average profitability in consumer electronics is 3.49%. Quick calculation is Topping products across their product line average at $333. So assuming Topping is near average, They get about $11.62 per item sold. Assuming I'm Topping's sole owner and am fine making what I make now (which I wouldn't be with the risks involved), I would need to sell about 10,000 units across my product line. If I was the owner I would be looking at something like 10 times that to make the risks worthwhile.

So my guess is sales of the PA5 are in the thousands to lower 5 figures.

 

[pjug]

I can't say I know much about pricing in consumer electronics, but this is backwards from how you need to think as a business. Average profitability in consumer electronics is 3.49%. Quick calculation is Topping products across their product line average at $333. So assuming Topping is near average, They get about $11.62 per item sold. Assuming I'm Topping's sole owner and am fine making what I make now (which I wouldn't be with the risks involved), I would need to sell about 10,000 units across my product line. If I was the owner I would be looking at something like 10 times that to make the risks worthwhile.

So my guess is sales of the PA5 are in the thousands to lower 5 figures.

I don't know much about it either, but of course there is nothing binding them to 3.49%. I can't imagine most audio companies would be able to operate with such a low profit margin.

 

[jmillar]

"reale" Is that French?

Nope. Italian

 

[IPunchCholla]

I don't know much about it either, but of course there is nothing binding them to 3.49%. I can't imagine most audio companies would be able to operate with such a low profit margin.

That's the average profit margin in consumer electronics. Net margin is 16%, Gross is 56%. Harman's was 5.9% last quarter. Apple's was 26%

 

[pjug]

That's the average profit margin in consumer electronics. Net margin is 16%, Gross is 56%. Harman's was 5.9% last quarter. Apple's was 26%

I understood the 3.49% number you gave was an average. But that was the number you used to say therefore Topping was selling so many units. At your number of about $12 profit per device, even 10K units would just be $120K profit. I think they must be making a much better margin than that, otherwise it does not look like good business to me. (Unless they are selling an order of magnitude more devices than your guess, which I doubt.)

 

[antcollinet]

I understood the 3.49% number you gave was an average. But that was the number you used to say therefore Topping was selling so many units. At your number of about $12 profit per device, even 10K units would just be $120K profit. I think they must be making a much better margin than that, otherwise it does not look like good business to me. (Unless they are selling an order of magnitude more devices than your guess, which I doubt.)

Welcome to the world of consumer electronics.

 

[Stinius]

Hi Stein,
Nice to see you here.

Cheers,
Pavel

Thanks

Nice seeing you again.

Believe it or not but I was kicked out at the other place, I answered a post "from Russia with love"
with:
"To hell with Russia, all the best to Ukrainia"

BTW: it would be nice if Scott and Ovidiu would be more active in threads like this.

Cheers
Stein