Tone control

[LouB]

I'm new around here & realize that even with the science there's still opinions on it ! Which makes for some great reading
I'm buying a new amp 1.5K-2K budget for music only and there is always a compromise at this price point. But the one thing I would not compromise on is tone control. (I'm not new to amps or music I played in bar band for 20 years did live sound & studio recording just never had the money to buy a nice home stereo.)
I know the argument that tone control will get in the way of a "pure signal path" but every mixer I've ever seen has tone controls, even hi end active speakers have some sort tone control or switching on them. Pro quality mixers use different mic preamps which will "color" the sound a bit (a selling point) than add different mics & they will also "color' the sound. I think the only true uncolored sound would be totally acoustic with absolutely no electronics involved.
I would think with today's technology a medium priced integrated amp would have tone controls that when set at 0 would not be a determent to the recorded music. I have a Yamaha AV amp which has a "pure direct" button and when engaged the amp looses a lot of volume & sounds really thin. I'm not sure what that button actually does but it never gets used. I know it comes down to personal choice/needs in my case I want tone control but will giving up some power, built in DAC & balanced inputs.
Just wondering if tone controls on today's amps are really a deterrent in the signal path, or probably a better question if there they are is it an audible difference ?
Thanks

 

[Doodski]

Just wondering if tone controls on today's amps are really a deterrent in the signal path, or probably a better question if there they are is it an audible difference ?

Yes, they are a source of added distortion but it is very small and the added benefit of the tone controls far outweighs any distortion that may come from the tone control circuitry. The difference in some amps is audible but in a Yamaha they should sound pretty close to identical when using the tone controls or not.

 

[fpitas]

Yeah, with modern op-amp based tone controls the distortion is very low.

 

[NiagaraPete]

"pure signal path"

I'm a old school, short signal path, no tone control type of guy. The reality is it no longer has any value and I'm not sure it ever did. Enjoy shaping the sound anyway you like.

 

[ZolaIII]

Take a look at Yamahas (A-S, R-N) midrange with equal loudness normalization if that's what you want. Everything depends how good implementation is all together.
I won't go wide about what is reached and commercially available even affordable regarding ADC's or DSP's.

 

[Multicore]

I'm a old school, short signal path, no tone control type of guy. The reality is it no longer has any value and I'm not sure it ever did.

I think it was a snob thing. Back when Japanese gear was selling well, looked and worked great, and had loads of useful fun featres, British makers went in the opposite direction.

 

[ahofer]

I'm new around here & realize that even with the science there's still opinions on it ! Which makes for some great reading
I'm buying a new amp 1.5K-2K budget for music only and there is always a compromise at this price point. But the one thing I would not compromise on is tone control. (I'm not new to amps or music I played in bar band for 20 years did live sound & studio recording just never had the money to buy a nice home stereo.)
I know the argument that tone control will get in the way of a "pure signal path" but every mixer I've ever seen has tone controls, even hi end active speakers have some sort tone control or switching on them. Pro quality mixers use different mic preamps which will "color" the sound a bit (a selling point) than add different mics & they will also "color' the sound. I think the only true uncolored sound would be totally acoustic with absolutely no electronics involved.
I would think with today's technology a medium priced integrated amp would have tone controls that when set at 0 would not be a determent to the recorded music. I have a Yamaha AV amp which has a "pure direct" button and when engaged the amp looses a lot of volume & sounds really thin. I'm not sure what that button actually does but it never gets used. I know it comes down to personal choice/needs in my case I want tone control but will giving up some power, built in DAC & balanced inputs.
Just wondering if tone controls on today's amps are really a deterrent in the signal path, or probably a better question if there they are is it an audible difference ?
Thanks

Shouldn't be a difference, but tone can be implemented in DSP. I use an RME-ADI DAC/preamp for this purpose. It includes Dynamic Loudness, which is really cool - loudness is dialed out as the preamp volume goes up. User configurable.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Welcome!

Quality mixers don't really have tone controls (i.e. as found in domestic HiFi). They are (and have been for decades) much more refined: frequency ranges can be selected; they have pass-band EQ (such as mid and presence); some have parametric settings which allow the Q to be selected. Tone controls in classic HiFi are often very coarse with unnecessary levels of boost and cut and no opportunity to change the frequency or Q. In my opinion, the negative press HiFi tone controls get is completely valid.

Also, there's no such thing as a free lunch. if you change the frequency response you change the phase. Whilst you may make low-distortion analogue EQ circuits, you can never design-out the phase consequences - it's physics. Obviously, the less aggressive the EQ, the less impactful the phase change (again a reason why HiFi tone controls are poor). Whilst I don't like HiFi tone controls, I absolutely loath analogue Graphic Equalisers!

But if you perform Parametric Equalisation (setting frequency, Q and lift or boost) in the digital domain, through FIR or IIR type filters, the negative impacts are much less significant. So if you either want to fix your room characteristics, feed a sub or tweak your music to your taste, look to do any such changes in the digital domain, not through HiFi tone controls.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Well... analog EQs have a penchant for being less than precise, as well as noisy... but they won't create literal steps in the frequency response like I once found with the Shibatch Super EQ for Winamp. Imagine what that does in the time domain. (You didn't want differences greater than about 2 dB from one band to the next.) The same 20-year-old library is still used for the default Foobar2000 EQ today.

But yeah, do it right and digital is the way to go for sure. Simple tone controls are so last century.

 

[levimax]

I missed physical no latency "knob style" tone controls (digital sliders with latency are terrible to use in my experience) so I made a little pre-amp with analogue tone controls that can be switched easily in and out of the signal path. While I am sure it adds some noise and distortion and phase shift I can't hear it and the "no latency physical knobs" are so much better than any "digital slider" solution I would never go back. Ideally you could have a digital solution with knobs with nice feel and phase correction but I am not sure if you could get rid of the latency. My favorite are knob tone controls that "switch out of the circuit" when they are set to flat as it is much more flexible that the "pure direct" mode that defeats all tone controls. This is a fairly expensive way to do it so it won't be easy to find and will probably be on higher end products but I think tone controls are very nice to have and they make more of an audible difference to the sound than chasing SINAD.

 

[bodhi]

I have Dynamic EQ on all the time, I'm pretty sure any degradation it causes is small compared to what listening with moderate volume does to perceived bass response.

 

[LouB]

Thanks everyone for the replies, & from a few replies it seems that having tone control on an 1.5K-2K integrated amp is not a bad thing and any bad quality they may add it will not be likely to be audible.
I get the whole digital thing, I process multi track music with Protools & it's absolutely amazing in what you can digitally do with recorded music. There's plug-ins that will take a sub par recording and make it stellar in a matter of seconds with the push of a button still amazes me after years of using it.
But I really do not want to get into any digital processing programs, apps or processing add ons with my very simple 2 channel stereo. Just an FYI, the amps I'm looking at are Marantz PM8006, Cambridge Audio CXA81 & Acram SA20, don't want a class D amp & don't really know about class G the Acram uses.

 

[Gregss]

I'm a old school, short signal path, no tone control type of guy. The reality is it no longer has any value and I'm not sure it ever did. Enjoy shaping the sound anyway you like.

Sadly, the dislike of tone controls has let to many listening to sub standard music from what they could have had. Quote below from Douglas Self.

"Tone-controls cause an audible deterioration even when set to the flat position."
This is usually blamed on "phase-shift". At the time of writing, tone controls on a preamp badly damage its chances of street (or rather sitting-room) credibility, for no good reason. Tone-controls set to 'flat' cannot possibly contribute any extra phase-shift and must be inaudible. My view is that they are absolutely indispensable for correcting room acoustics, loudspeaker shortcomings, or tonal balance of the source material, and that a lot of people are suffering sub-optimal sound as a result of this fashion. It is now commonplace for audio critics to suggest that frequency-response inadequacies should be corrected by changing loudspeakers. This is an extraordinarily expensive way of avoiding tone-controls.

http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm

 

[MarkS]

I'm buying a new amp 1.5K-2K budget for music only and there is always a compromise at this price point. But the one thing I would not compromise on is tone control.

I strongly recommend you push you budget up a bit (to $2500) and get a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. It has (virtual, via a web-based interface) tone controls with adjustable frequency hinges, AND full PEQ capaabilities (which Lyngdorf calls "voicings"), AND a very good room correction system ("RoomPerfect"), AND full subwoofer integration capabilities (high and low pass filters with adjustable frequencies and slopes).

And if $2K is really your upper limit, there is a used one for that on ebay right now from an authorized Lyngdorf dealer.

But, of course, this is all done in the digital domain. But as others have said, the sonic results are vastly superior.

Long thread here on the TDAI-1120:

Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 questions

Hi. In search for a new amp I’m waiting for the new Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. However I not familiar with the Lyngdorf family and pros or cons. One thing I can’t find info about is the dac chipset. Does anyone have information on this? What to expect compared to other Lyngdorf units...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amir's review of RoomPerfect:

Review and Measurements of Lyngdorf RoomPerfect EQ

This is a follow up to my review of the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. While that review was focused on objective measurements of the DAC and amplifier, this review is focused on the performance of the room equalization (RoomPerfect). As much as I like to perform a comprehensive test and review of Lyngdorf...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[tomelex]

I have a SONY cheap unit for the computer system, was perhaps $175 four years ago, that has a pure direct button, and you definitely hear a cleaner sound when you implement it, no matter how close i try to get the tone to zero. I do have to raise the volume when i engage it, but I engage it every time I fire the unit up. Might want to revisit yours, although as mentioned by someone else perhaps YAMAHA has such good tone control centering and circuits that the switch on your unit does not make an audible difference, unlike mine, which is quite audible. My HAFLER pre-amp has a bypass button for the tone controls and I notice no difference there when they are centered, so that pure direct is needed on some gear for sure the SONY.

 

[restorer-john]

The removal of tone controls, filters and signal routing never had anything to do with sound quality improvements- we already had preamp stages that offered distortion and noise numbers at least 2 factors better than the power stages they were connected to.

It's extremely rare I would use tone controls, but then again, my sources are digital mostly these days. Totally different kettle of fish once you start using analogue sources like vinyl or tape- tone controls and filters are absolutely essential.

Not all tone controls are created equal and some modern implementations are truly abominable- especially the cheap Chinese 'amplifers' with non-defeatable bass and treble controls.

 

[ahofer]

But I really do not want to get into any digital processing programs, apps or processing add ons with my very simple 2 channel stereo. Just an FYI, the amps I'm looking at are Marantz PM8006, Cambridge Audio CXA81 & Acram SA20, don't want a class D amp & don't really know about class G the Acram uses.

You can add digital EQ in multiple streaming solutions, including some of the cheapest.

Class D amps aren’t digital, but maybe you knew that.

 

[levimax]

But as others have said, the sonic results are vastly superior.

No one said that.

 

[OldHvyMec]

I have always preferred tone controls on a shared system my wife uses along with me. She really like a C2500 we have She likes my
C20 that's all tricked out too. I like the unit also it has everything. For serious listening I use a Cary SLP-05 there is no tone control
but it has dual volume controls with a master volume too. I can balance a poor recording. The only place I need any tone control in
my listening room is 300hz and below. I use adjustable traps for the peaks.
Heavy drapes on 3 walls to dampen the return waves just a bit. I open or close the side wall curtains if I want the sound a little
livelier. I use diffusion on the back wall about 25-30% They are L-traps. 24"x36". I also use 4-8 12"drivers (depending on the size
of the room) with OB servo plates from 20< to 60hz. They are easier on my ears, I don't get fatigued when I use them either.
I use bandpass columns from 60-300hz (they image a center channel) and a Hybrid LS with small planars and a single ribbon, for mains.

I've tinkered with a lot of setups but the current systems I'm using has the best overall sound I've ever had. The room being set up with
acoustics as a primary source of tone control lead to 100% of the ability to leave tone control out of signal path. I'm personally not a
purest by any means. If I like the sound or look of something, I could care less about following the rules. Tone controls are a form of
EQ or is it visa versa. No matter the reason you can argue with my wife why she turns the bass up or turns it down.
I quit trying to understand why she loves to tinker when she told me "I like to tinker" 49 years ago. Some times it just pays to listen.

Happy New Year. We made it!

 

[MarkS]

No one said that.

MaxwellsEq did, and he's right: "But if you perform Parametric Equalisation (setting frequency, Q and lift or boost) in the digital domain, through FIR or IIR type filters, the negative impacts are much less significant."