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Tone control

Nitreb

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Sadly, the dislike of tone controls has let to many listening to sub standard music from what they could have had. Quote below from Douglas Self.

"Tone-controls cause an audible deterioration even when set to the flat position."
This is usually blamed on "phase-shift". At the time of writing, tone controls on a preamp badly damage its chances of street (or rather sitting-room) credibility, for no good reason. Tone-controls set to 'flat' cannot possibly contribute any extra phase-shift and must be inaudible. My view is that they are absolutely indispensable for correcting room acoustics, loudspeaker shortcomings, or tonal balance of the source material, and that a lot of people are suffering sub-optimal sound as a result of this fashion. It is now commonplace for audio critics to suggest that frequency-response inadequacies should be corrected by changing loudspeakers. This is an extraordinarily expensive way of avoiding tone-controls.


http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm
Personnaly, I would not buy an amp that doesn't have tone controls, they are very useful, e.g. when I listen to music at low level - adding a bit of bass and treble makes the experience more enjoyable. Also. some recordings can be bright, so removing a bit of treble can be useful. On my old Yamaha CA1000, I also used the variable loudness control often for low level listening. Too bad that my current Yamaha amp doesn't have one.
 

restorer-john

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Honestly if modern systems with measurements and DSP figure out a way where you can adjust the tilt in 0.1db increments during playback, nobody will ever look back.

With a user-adjustable frequency 'axis' set point, the tilt style tone control would likely make a lot of people quite happy.
 

levimax

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MaxwellsEq did, and he's right: "But if you perform Parametric Equalisation (setting frequency, Q and lift or boost) in the digital domain, through FIR or IIR type filters, the negative impacts are much less significant."
Less significant does not mean the same thing as "vastly superior". In fact it is not even settled science that phase shift at the level caused by tone controls is audible at all.
 

witwald

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I would think with today's technology a medium priced integrated amp would have tone controls that when set at 0 would not be a determent to the recorded music.
It would be a bit surprising if that were not the case. The test measurements that I've seen indicate that the amplifiers measure quite flat, and their specifications certainly indicate that they should.
I have a Yamaha AV amp which has a "pure direct" button and when engaged the amp looses a lot of volume & sounds really thin.
The "Pure Direct" mode simply removes an amplification stage, which is why there is a reduction in output volume. That gain stage also happens to include the tone and loudness controls (be they in the digital or analog domains).

The fact that you now perceive the amplifier as sounding "thin" is caused by the way human hearing works, and is not a feature of the amplifier's sound quality. Human hearing has a frequency response that changes with sound intensity. At lower sound pressures the ear responds less to low frequency and high frequency sounds than it does to mid-frequency sounds.

You may have noticed that as you increase the sound level of a music recording, you begin to hear more of the high and low frequencies. At some point there is a "sweet spot" in the output level that makes the recording sound good/best to one's ears.

The nonlinear, level-dependent human hearing mechanism has been documented in the Fletcher-Munson (and more recent) curves. The loudness control tries to provide an approximate inverse effect, equalizing the output signal so that at a low sound pressure level its perceived frequency balance is that same as that of an unequalized sound at a higher sound pressure level. The implementation taken is really only an approximation to the inverse of what the ear is doing. Although it would be possible to do a better match of Fletcher-Munson curves using DSP, I haven't come across any such examples.
Just wondering if tone controls on today's amps are really a deterrent in the signal path, or probably a better question if there they are is it an audible difference ?
In a well designed modern amplifier, tone controls should not have any audible detrimental effect on the output signal, especially when they are set at their zero (neutral) position.
 

restorer-john

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The "Pure Direct" mode simply removes an amplification stage, which is why there is a reduction in output volume. That gain stage also happens to include the tone and loudness controls (be they in the digital or analog domains).

Plenty of 'pure direct'/'line straight'/'CD direct' functions also increase the level very subtly to make people think they sound better.

Some tone controls are entirely passive, others active and others have gain up front, after or both. There are no hard and fast rules of what exactly is removed from the signal path. I've even measured amplifiers where the tone bypass/direct switch makes the frequency response worse than it was with the tone stages in circuit!
 
OP
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LouB

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It would be a bit surprising if that were not the case. The test measurements that I've seen indicate that the amplifiers measure quite flat, and their specifications certainly indicate that they should.

The "Pure Direct" mode simply removes an amplification stage, which is why there is a reduction in output volume. That gain stage also happens to include the tone and loudness controls (be they in the digital or analog domains).

The fact that you now perceive the amplifier as sounding "thin" is caused by the way human hearing works, and is not a feature of the amplifier's sound quality. Human hearing has a frequency response that changes with sound intensity. At lower sound pressures the ear responds less to low frequency and high frequency sounds than it does to mid-frequency sounds.

You may have noticed that as you increase the sound level of a music recording, you begin to hear more of the high and low frequencies. At some point there is a "sweet spot" in the output level that makes the recording sound good/best to one's ears.

The nonlinear, level-dependent human hearing mechanism has been documented in the Fletcher-Munson (and more recent) curves. The loudness control tries to provide an approximate inverse effect, equalizing the output signal so that at a low sound pressure level its perceived frequency balance is that same as that of an unequalized sound at a higher sound pressure level. The implementation taken is really only an approximation to the inverse of what the ear is doing. Although it would be possible to do a better match of Fletcher-Munson curves using DSP, I haven't come across any such examples.

In a well designed modern amplifier, tone controls should not have any audible detrimental effect on the output signal, especially when they are set at their zero (neutral) position.
Thank-you for the very detailed explanation, interesting on the human hearing and what engineers design in an amp to compensate for it. Also good to know the tone control will not have a detrimental affect on the output signal. With that in mind I'm pretty sure I'll end up the Marantz PM8006.
Thanks again
 

Taiga

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Another option is Outlaw:
 

Hiten

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I understand its implementation that makes difference. and without schematics/ICs used one can not be sure. But how about digital tone controls like this ?
P6140090.jpg.3dc087be3841116e5b76e68929b47b0f.jpg

thanks and regards.
 

norman bates

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some of the nakamichi stasis receivers have a loudness pot.
Like the yamaha as801 and its smaller brothers, you turn it up as loud as you'd go, set the tone controls, then use the variable loudness to turn the volume down and up (that is now your volume control).

I just fiddle with it depending on which speakers I'm using, a little of it with the revel, and a bit more with the jbls, but I use the big volume knob for the overall volume.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

My advice is off the beaten path.

One of the most useful "Tone Control" in my opinion is a variable loudness. I know of two that are said to be efficient: Audyssey Dynamic EQ (DEQ) and the RME Variable Loudness. I have only experienced Audyssey DEQ and it is to me, mandatory.
If the Tone Control is to be used on an album or track basis, a two button, bass and treble, could be a solution. If, however it is used to modify the general sound to taste, I would suggest something more sophisticated such as an FIR PEQ. I could be called a fanboi, but an AVR compatible with Audyssey MultEQ-X App is the solution. Something like the Denon AVX-X3700H. You get 7 powerful amplifiers (I know, you only need 2), you get Audyssey Digital Room Correction, Dynamic EQ, and with the MultEQ-X App you get a very high and fine grained level of control on the room and sound correction. I believe you can implement up to 24 filters, I could be wrong, as it may support more...
Not the most efficient solution in term of electrical consumption and there is a lot of unneeded features but I don't know of any integrated that has this kind of audio processing power.. Perhaps the Lyngdorf TDA-1200. It is, new, above your budget.

I know, a bit against the grain, type of advice: Denon AVR-X3700H

In my opinion an AVR is the best anchor for any audio system music or HT, 2-Channel of Multichannel.

Peace.
 
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bodhi

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In my opinion an AVR is the best anchor for any audio system music or HT, 2-Channel of Multichannel.

Peace.

Agreed. Unfortunately it is almost impossible to have music only-user to even consider let alone try AVR. I have tried and keep trying. :)

For me it would be unthinkable to not have REQ, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic volume and LFC. Any real or imaginary sound quality difference favoring dedicated 2-channel amp would be utterly insignificant in comparison.
 

MaxwellsEq

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One thing I'm not convinced about is the argument that tone controls were dropped in order to save costs.

In the 80s and 90s there were two design philosophies at work: very expensive "hairshirt" preamps with just selector and volume controls; much cheaper mass-market hifi with tone controls, loudness, meters etc.

It was the expensive kit that stopped shipping with tone controls, because they were believed to mess up the sound and broke the "straight wire with gain" definition of the perfect amplifier.
 

Mal

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I'm buying a new amp 1.5K-2K budget for music only and there is always a compromise at this price point.

Just wondering if tone controls on today's amps are really a deterrent in the signal path, or probably a better question if there they are is it an audible difference ?
I have a Schiit Loki Mini+ between by DAC and amp and I don't hear an audible difference.

 

FrantzM

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One thing I'm not convinced about is the argument that tone controls were dropped in order to save costs.

In the 80s and 90s there were two design philosophies at work: very expensive "hairshirt" preamps with just selector and volume controls; much cheaper mass-market hifi with tone controls, loudness, meters etc.

It was the expensive kit that stopped shipping with tone controls, because they were believed to mess up the sound and broke the "straight wire with gain" definition of the perfect amplifier.
Tend to agree... The High End Audio Industry considers Tone Control as anathema to best sound :rolleyes:... Signal must remain "pure". In the meantime, same "purity" advocates, all of them DSP haters, find Triode, SET amplifiers producing 30 wpc @ 10 % THD (Yes , People!) and cost >$100,000.oo ... as "best" ... Pure indeed... The so-called mid-fi audio segment followed suit: no tone control either, thus, "pure" signal chain ... As a matter of fact, many AVR have that "pure" setting...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Peace.
 

MaxwellsEq

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Tend to agree... The High End Audio Industry considers Tone Control as anathema to best sound :rolleyes:... Signal must remain "pure". In the meantime, same "purity" advocates, all of them DSP haters, find Triode, SET amplifiers producing 30 wpc @ 10 % THD (Yes , People!) and cost >$100,000.oo ... as "best" ... Pure indeed... The so-called mid-fi audio segment followed suit: no tone control either, thus, "pure" signal chain ... As a matter of fact, many AVR have that "pure" setting...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Peace.
That's such a good point! Use of language gives us an insight into who marketing people are eyeing up.

Head of Sales to Engineer: "Everyone else is making amps with all these meters and buttons and controls and we have just two. How am I supposed to market it?"
Engineer to Head of Sales: "It's pure; shortest path; perfect sound"
Head of Sales to Engineer: "I can work with that"
 

Marc v E

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Hi

My advice is off the beaten path.

One of the most useful "Tone Control" in my opinion is a variable loudness. I know of two that are said to be efficient: Audyssey Dynamic EQ (DEQ) and the RME Variable Loudness. I have only experienced Audyssey DEQ and it is to me, mandatory.
If the Tone Control is to be used on an album or track basis, a two button, bass and treble, could be a solution. If, however it is used to modify the general sound to taste, I would suggest something more sophisticated such as an FIR PEQ. I could be called a fanboi, but an AVR compatible with Audyssey MultEQ-X App is the solution. Something like the Denon AVX-X3700H. You get 7 powerful amplifiers (I know, you only need 2), you get Audyssey Digital Room Correction, Dynamic EQ, and with the MultEQ-X App you get a very high and fine grained level of control on the room and sound correction. I believe you can implement up to 24 filters, I could be wrong, as it may support more...
Not the most efficient solution in term of electrical consumption and there is a lot of unneeded features but I don't know of any integrated that has this kind of audio processing power.. Perhaps the Lyngdorf TDA-1200. It is, new, above your budget.

I know, a bit against the grain, type of advice: Denon AVR-X3700H

In my opinion an AVR is the best anchor for any audio system music or HT, 2-Channel of Multichannel.

Peace.
@LouB this seems the way to go imo. The amps you prelisted, Marantz, Cambridge and Arcam just aren't as clean as the Denon (Sinad wise) and cannot touch it's eq possibilities. As a bonus you can integrate future subs too.

And the Denon AVR-X3700H is on sale right now. You'd have all you need for now and the future for around 1200 dollars/euros.
 
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restorer-john

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One thing I'm not convinced about is the argument that tone controls were dropped in order to save costs.

Without a doubt it was costs. UK designed gear was so far behind Japanese product in value, features and performance they had to do something or disappear altogether.

The Japanese had pioneered the 'tone defeat' switch, which hardcore 'audiophiles' thought was pure and somehow better. UK and US gear didn't care for bypassed tone controls (after all, they were needed!), but started to equip their gear with tone defeat functionality. Soon, the magazines proclaimed how much better it was with the tone controls bypassed. Except they never tested in and out did they? Many tone defeat circuits were designed to be just a fraction louder when bypassed to heighten the illusion.

So, all of a sudden, you weren't serious if you had active tone controls in circuit. And, it sure helped with costs. Less controls meant somehow more 'pure' amplification.

There were plenty of otherwise identical amplifiers sold to the public in the 80s and 90s where the tone circuitry was simply not populated on the PCB and a few links bypassed it. Rapturous reviews of course. The first run of Pioneer's A-400 was a stripped down A-44x model. I remember removing the cover, only to see a ton of unpopulated PCB and a bunch of links. LOL. And it cost more. We sold tons of them to stupid audiophools.

Then came the so-called "pure direct", which was, basically, removing the entire active front end and feeding the input to a pot and a high gain power stage, instead of well matched gain stages.
 

Waxx

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My 1982 Luxman C-02 preamp has that direct out, that defeats the eq, but it actually sounds better with the eq on but set in neutral. The direct out is indeed thin sounding.

My Marantz PM5004 is reverse, it sounds better without the eq (but the difference is small) so with source direct engange. So i tend to eq extra with my player (JRiver) if it's needed. On that amp i don't have the vinyl setup, so it's all digital on source anyway...

And on the original subject, the music you hear is not like it was sounding in the room, it's processed a lot in the studio during recording, mixing and mastering. And adapting music to your taste is not bad. The goal of listening music is to enjoy it in a hifi situation, not to look at graphs or so (that is for testing). So if a little eq is needed to enjoy it, do it. I tend to eq minimal, but i do eq when needed and you should it also, analog or digital.
 
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