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Steve Guttenberg - Audiophiliac

scott wurcer

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If you wanted a fight, should've picked Michael Fremer.

Romy the Cat did so here: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=1957#1957. Highly amusing.

Thanks, I love Romy and Arthur Salvatore for that matter. They are interesting characters that have both had feuds with people I can't stand. Romy's description of how Bruckner should sound is wonderfully eccentric and Arthur has a seriously interesting eclectic taste in music.

Fremer OTOH constantly plays the envy card (though he incorrectly uses jealousy). He pushes the cost level to an absurd limit on every component. He did a review of the Furutech vinyl de-magnetizer and quoted some lab measurements, when I replicated them it was easy to show that the magnetic susceptibility of the average cartridge was 8 or 9 orders of magnitude below the numbers he presented.
 

scott wurcer

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I once bought grounding cables for my engine in the hope of improving performance, cheaper than hifi grounding cables mind you ..

I had a tech that showed me a quartz crystal wrapped in copper tape around his carburetor. I could write a book on the techs I had in my 42 years of working. I had another that checked an entire case of green Krylon out of lab supplies and painted his car on lunch break.
 

HiFidFan

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

Sorry, the analogy does not square with me. What are the technical aspects one would adhere to, in order to call themselves a car enthusiast?
 
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HiFidFan

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I once bought grounding cables for my engine in the hope of improving performance, cheaper than hifi grounding cables mind you ..

Its perfectly possible to be drawn into uneducated nonsense in all walks of life if ones enthusiasm out pases ones understanding .

I had a tech that showed me a quartz crystal wrapped in copper tape around his carburetor. I could write a book on the techs I had in my 42 years of working. I had another that checked an entire case of green Krylon out of lab supplies and painted his car on lunch break.

Yes, the automobile industry is rife with snake oil. . .

 

Helicopter

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I wonder what percentage of sports cars that cost more than a supercharged C7 Corvette have superior technical performance.
 

Easternlethal

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Sorry, the analogy does not square with me. What are the technical aspects one would adhere to, in order to call themselves a car enthusiast?
we're just saying that if car guy A says to car guy B - hey I'm all about the tech. Car guy B may say that's great but it's not why I bought this Ferrari or whatever. But he probably wouldn't look at car guy A funny and say oh you're one of those objectivists who's misunderstanding this hobby and get into a fight with him.
 
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HiFidFan

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we're just saying that if car guy A says to car guy B - hey I'm all about the tech. Car guy B may say that's great but it's not why I bought this Ferrari or whatever. But he probably wouldn't look at car guy A funny and say oh you're one of those objectivists who's misunderstanding this hobby and get into a fight with him.

Is that what was being said? Lol, I never would have sussed it.
 

Wes

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Sports cars are an interesting analogy. They have gotten to the point where a production sports car is uninvolving and uninteresting on the road.

That may account for some of the interest in the sports cars of the 1960s to '70s. I am thinking of Porsche, Ferrari here, not a Miata.
 

Helicopter

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Sports cars are an interesting analogy. They have gotten to the point where a production sports car is uninvolving and uninteresting on the road.

That may account for some of the interest in the sports cars of the 1960s to '70s. I am thinking of Porsche, Ferrari here, not a Miata.
So like 7%, 3%... ?:facepalm:
 

ta240

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Wrong. There is interest here in subjective reviews where extraneous variables are controlled.

You should have written that there is no interest in BS.

Many believe that consumer protection is important, including Congress and the Attorneys General of every state in the US. So don't use "saving" as a perjorative.

The rules on subjective reviews here seem to only apply if the results fit the desired outcome or the reviewer is held in high enough regard.

As has been noted several times before, only Amir gets a pass on doing sighted listening and after knowing exactly what to listen for from doing the regular tests. If anyone else is told what they will hear with a new component and then hears it, they get mocked for it being expectation bias.
Either everyone has the ability to rise above expectation bias or nobody does.

I've seen threads here before stating things like "this guy compared a $100 DAC and a $10,000 one and didn't hear a difference" as an example of how there is no difference to the sound and every reply jumps on how that is proof there is no difference. I can say Coke and Pepsi taste the same because when I compared them they tasted the same, and it makes just as much sense. Heck, using the same method I can 'prove' that Mountain Dew tastes the same as Pepsi. One can't compare two items with the expectation that they won't hear a difference and have it be valid results when they don't. But since the outcome of that person's 'test' was what has already been decided to be true the results were supported.

If you want to follow the science and have "no interest in BS" then you have to call it BS even if the results fit your narrative or if the faulty subjective review comes from someone you hold in the highest regard.
 

hardisj

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cross-posted from here:


I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

When I started doing videos I started off with the "gung ho" attitude of telling people what was right and what was wrong. Two or three videos in I realized that I was an a$$hole for doing that. We don't need condescension and belittling. What's the point? Because people who appreciate objective data might get a chuckle out of it? If your point is simply bouncing your opinions around in an echo chamber and not *truly* educating those who are uninformed then that's fine. But if the goal is to educate and explain then I think tactics really need to change. That old "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" adage really does ring true in a case like this.

I realize I may sound like I'm giving a "from the soapbox" speech here. But I think you guys (most of you, at least) understand my true nature is to inform and educate and to not drive the wedge between camps even further. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason. Another couple adages fit well here: "with great power comes great responsibility" as well as "carpe diem". Steve has given this group a chance to be seen. Let's welcome those with differing views so they can maybe understand what the data is about rather than push them away without ever realizing it.

/my $0.02
 
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Cbdb2

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

That's not every ones definition. "An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction "

If a guy has a pair of Salons and hardware to match, and listens to music while doing nothing else, but dosnt know the difference between class B and C amps he's not an audiophile? I worked with recording engineers whos tech knowledge was limited, they don't know the technical difference between the optical and FET compressor but they can tell you how they sound different. Are they audiophiles?

And since 80% of audiophiles believe in magic, and shun the science, how is understanding technology paramount?
 

HiFidFan

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Almost impossible to undo 30 years of indoctrination, but younger guys appear to understand the science and are hugely dismissive of the BS.
Keith

Do you have any data on this? I ask because this is not what I sense.
 

Purité Audio

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Only in as much as the majority of SBIR speakers we sell are to young professional customers, having said there have been a number of older listeners who whilst acknowledging their superiority just can’t face the fuss and financial loss of selling their existing kit.
Keith
 

Ron Texas

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I wonder what percentage of sports cars that cost more than a supercharged C7 Corvette have superior technical performance.

Quite a few because the supercharged C7 has a problem with overheating on the track. Lots of mid engine cars can do a better in several metrics.
 

HiFidFan

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Only in as much as the majority of SBIR speakers we sell are to young professional customers, having said there have been a number of older listeners who whilst acknowledging their superiority just can’t face the fuss and financial loss of selling their existing kit.
Keith


I hear ya, but I find the trend of vinyl sales remarkable

Screen Shot 2021-03-20 at 2.40.57 PM.png
 

amirm

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If a guy has a pair of Salons and hardware to match, and listens to music while doing nothing else, but dosnt know the difference between class B and C amps he's not an audiophile?
If they had someone else buy that gear with no research, then I call them music lovers. There are plenty of wealthy individuals who have their "agent" shop for them for example and "get them the best there is." They have no interest, nor any time to spend on figuring out what hardware is the best. They want to just enjoy music or show off the gear, or both. We never see or run into these people in these circles. But they are responsible for ton of high-end audio gear purchases.

There is a class that buys the hardware you mention that most definitely researches it to death and spends as much if not more time on that, than listening to music. They have two hobbies: enjoying music and enjoying research and experience of buying/owning hardware.
 
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