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Steve Guttenberg - Audiophiliac

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Easternlethal

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Sorry, the analogy does not square with me. What are the technical aspects one would adhere to, in order to call themselves a car enthusiast?
we're just saying that if car guy A says to car guy B - hey I'm all about the tech. Car guy B may say that's great but it's not why I bought this Ferrari or whatever. But he probably wouldn't look at car guy A funny and say oh you're one of those objectivists who's misunderstanding this hobby and get into a fight with him.
 
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HiFidFan

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we're just saying that if car guy A says to car guy B - hey I'm all about the tech. Car guy B may say that's great but it's not why I bought this Ferrari or whatever. But he probably wouldn't look at car guy A funny and say oh you're one of those objectivists who's misunderstanding this hobby and get into a fight with him.

Is that what was being said? Lol, I never would have sussed it.
 

Wes

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Sports cars are an interesting analogy. They have gotten to the point where a production sports car is uninvolving and uninteresting on the road.

That may account for some of the interest in the sports cars of the 1960s to '70s. I am thinking of Porsche, Ferrari here, not a Miata.
 

Helicopter

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Sports cars are an interesting analogy. They have gotten to the point where a production sports car is uninvolving and uninteresting on the road.

That may account for some of the interest in the sports cars of the 1960s to '70s. I am thinking of Porsche, Ferrari here, not a Miata.
So like 7%, 3%... ?:facepalm:
 

ta240

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Wrong. There is interest here in subjective reviews where extraneous variables are controlled.

You should have written that there is no interest in BS.

Many believe that consumer protection is important, including Congress and the Attorneys General of every state in the US. So don't use "saving" as a perjorative.

The rules on subjective reviews here seem to only apply if the results fit the desired outcome or the reviewer is held in high enough regard.

As has been noted several times before, only Amir gets a pass on doing sighted listening and after knowing exactly what to listen for from doing the regular tests. If anyone else is told what they will hear with a new component and then hears it, they get mocked for it being expectation bias.
Either everyone has the ability to rise above expectation bias or nobody does.

I've seen threads here before stating things like "this guy compared a $100 DAC and a $10,000 one and didn't hear a difference" as an example of how there is no difference to the sound and every reply jumps on how that is proof there is no difference. I can say Coke and Pepsi taste the same because when I compared them they tasted the same, and it makes just as much sense. Heck, using the same method I can 'prove' that Mountain Dew tastes the same as Pepsi. One can't compare two items with the expectation that they won't hear a difference and have it be valid results when they don't. But since the outcome of that person's 'test' was what has already been decided to be true the results were supported.

If you want to follow the science and have "no interest in BS" then you have to call it BS even if the results fit your narrative or if the faulty subjective review comes from someone you hold in the highest regard.
 

hardisj

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cross-posted from here:


I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

When I started doing videos I started off with the "gung ho" attitude of telling people what was right and what was wrong. Two or three videos in I realized that I was an a$$hole for doing that. We don't need condescension and belittling. What's the point? Because people who appreciate objective data might get a chuckle out of it? If your point is simply bouncing your opinions around in an echo chamber and not *truly* educating those who are uninformed then that's fine. But if the goal is to educate and explain then I think tactics really need to change. That old "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" adage really does ring true in a case like this.

I realize I may sound like I'm giving a "from the soapbox" speech here. But I think you guys (most of you, at least) understand my true nature is to inform and educate and to not drive the wedge between camps even further. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason. Another couple adages fit well here: "with great power comes great responsibility" as well as "carpe diem". Steve has given this group a chance to be seen. Let's welcome those with differing views so they can maybe understand what the data is about rather than push them away without ever realizing it.

/my $0.02
 
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Purité Audio

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Almost impossible to undo 30 years of indoctrination, but younger guys appear to understand the science and are hugely dismissive of the BS.
Keith
 

Cbdb2

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Being an audiophile is a hobby different and independent of enjoying music. Everyone in the world enjoys music. Only a subset are audiophiles. For them, understanding technology is paramount. They all do it. Problem is, some like Steve, make up what matters rather than understanding the reality of it. But both camps are hugely into the gear itself. And what makes it tick.

In that sense, they are no different than car enthusiasts. As rightly said, in that world people don't dismiss technical aspects of their hobby and objective performance out of hand like some audiophiles & Steve do.

That's not every ones definition. "An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction "

If a guy has a pair of Salons and hardware to match, and listens to music while doing nothing else, but dosnt know the difference between class B and C amps he's not an audiophile? I worked with recording engineers whos tech knowledge was limited, they don't know the technical difference between the optical and FET compressor but they can tell you how they sound different. Are they audiophiles?

And since 80% of audiophiles believe in magic, and shun the science, how is understanding technology paramount?
 

HiFidFan

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Almost impossible to undo 30 years of indoctrination, but younger guys appear to understand the science and are hugely dismissive of the BS.
Keith

Do you have any data on this? I ask because this is not what I sense.
 

Purité Audio

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Only in as much as the majority of SBIR speakers we sell are to young professional customers, having said there have been a number of older listeners who whilst acknowledging their superiority just can’t face the fuss and financial loss of selling their existing kit.
Keith
 

Ron Texas

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I wonder what percentage of sports cars that cost more than a supercharged C7 Corvette have superior technical performance.

Quite a few because the supercharged C7 has a problem with overheating on the track. Lots of mid engine cars can do a better in several metrics.
 

HiFidFan

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Only in as much as the majority of SBIR speakers we sell are to young professional customers, having said there have been a number of older listeners who whilst acknowledging their superiority just can’t face the fuss and financial loss of selling their existing kit.
Keith


I hear ya, but I find the trend of vinyl sales remarkable

Screen Shot 2021-03-20 at 2.40.57 PM.png
 

amirm

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If a guy has a pair of Salons and hardware to match, and listens to music while doing nothing else, but dosnt know the difference between class B and C amps he's not an audiophile?
If they had someone else buy that gear with no research, then I call them music lovers. There are plenty of wealthy individuals who have their "agent" shop for them for example and "get them the best there is." They have no interest, nor any time to spend on figuring out what hardware is the best. They want to just enjoy music or show off the gear, or both. We never see or run into these people in these circles. But they are responsible for ton of high-end audio gear purchases.

There is a class that buys the hardware you mention that most definitely researches it to death and spends as much if not more time on that, than listening to music. They have two hobbies: enjoying music and enjoying research and experience of buying/owning hardware.
 

JeffS7444

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Then why are so many kids into vinyl?
It's not clear to me how important actually playing the things is to younger people. I thought that the first few responses to this article were telling, before it devolves into mansplaining. I've gotten the sense that some of them enjoy the physical objects themselves, and if they do decide to play them, a portable player may satisfy their needs (and it's not clear to me that anyone's actually proven that a Crosley will destroy records provided that a good stylus is used).
 

tmtomh

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That's not every ones definition. "An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction "

If a guy has a pair of Salons and hardware to match, and listens to music while doing nothing else, but dosnt know the difference between class B and C amps he's not an audiophile? I worked with recording engineers whos tech knowledge was limited, they don't know the technical difference between the optical and FET compressor but they can tell you how they sound different. Are they audiophiles?

And since 80% of audiophiles believe in magic, and shun the science, how is understanding technology paramount?

@amirm 's point - which I strongly agree with - is that those proverbial "80% of audiophiles" don't actually believe in magic and shun the science - it's not that simple. Rather, pretty much everyone who would self-identify as an audiophile reads a lot about the technology, including specific cause-and-effect claims made by manufacturers and regurgitated by many reviewers. Even the most strenuously subjectivist, "trust your ears/we listen to music not measurements" audiophiles don't actually just listen with their ears and ignore specs. They first narrow down their list of potential components to consider and audition from 100s or 1000s to just a handful, and that weeding-out process very much involves technology and specs. They don't buy enormous, hyper-expensive Wilson Audio floorstanders simply because they or someone else like the sound - they get on their radar in the first place because their size and design are claimed to produce certain audible effects, and some of those effects like bass extension are paired with measurements to illustrate them. Similarly, they don't buy insanely expensive turntables and tonearms simply because they look cool (although of course that's part of it) - they come to desire those turntables in part because the cool appearance is the manifestation of a design that is claimed to produce certain specific technical benefits (lack of rumble, anti-resonant behavior, speed accuracy, and so on).

The difference between such folks and self-identified audio objectivists - and this is the important core of Amir's point - is that subjectivists are quite limited and selective in which specs they take seriously, and when. If they read about a new high-end cable that uses certain technology to allegedly lower the noise floor and tighten up soundstage imaging, and then if they read a well-known reviewer in a respected publication who repeats that technical claim and says the cable produced "blacker blacks" in the quiet or silent parts of musical content during listening tests, then they will add that cable to their list of potential future purchases, and the technological claim will be a key part of how that cable came to appear on that person's potential shopping list.

Now, if that person is in an audio forum and repeats that technical claim - or repeats the "blacker blacks" or soundstage-imaging claim - and they get challenged on that claim because science tells us it's nonsense, then that person will claim not to believe in measurements and will trot out the "I listen to music not measurements" idea.

But everyone who buys expensive equipment, goes to the trouble to comparatively audition equipment, and so on, uses technological information and is "into technology" in precisely the way Amir says.

Someone who picks up inexpensive used gear or maybe inherits gear from a family member or perhaps quickly buys something available locally - in other words who focuses little on the equipment and almost entirely on collecting music - is probably not an audiophile. They are a music lover - which is fantastic of course!

But people who are more specifically interested in high fidelity/high-quality/"realistic" sound reproduction and who invest significant time and/or money in the audio reproduction gear, are audiophiles - and they are all technology-oriented even if they might try to pretend otherwise when they find themselves stuck in an unwinnable argument.
 
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mhardy6647

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HiFidFan

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So, yeah, it's rocketing up! ;)

First of all, the conversation is in relation to the current younger generation, 30ish yo's, so going back to 1970 is irrelevant. In the last 15 years album sales have increased almost 20x (and have surpassed CD sales).

https://consequenceofsound.net/2020/09/vinyl-sales-surpass-cds-34-years/

Call it whatever you want ;), but these are the facts.

Extending the timeline a bit further puts things into better perspective:

Source: https://static.spin.com/files/140516-vinyl-riaa.jpg

No, it doesn't.. See above ^
 

mhardy6647

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Plenty of middle aged (to elderly) balding, paunchy, bespectaled, mostly white audiophiles are buying LPs as well. Reissued remixes/remasters of albums they already have -- pressed on thick, heavy vinyl, sometimes half speed mastered, yadda^3.

In the last 20 years, LP unit sales have gone from an abysmally small number to a very small number. So, yeah, great percent improvement, but...
It's just noise in the great scheme of things.

I think it is safe to assume that most of the unit sales in the 1970s were to "under 30s" as well -- were there orders or magnitude more "under 30s" in 1979 than in 2020? I don't think so...

As far as CD sales go... CD sales are vanishingly small at this point (speaking of "the facts").

1616275917352.png
 
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