Well, perhaps. But the transformer may indeed be part of the equation. Nelson Pass thinks so and made some First Watt amps with coupling transformers that tube aficionados like.Well -- there is that.
But I'm tellin' you -- it' s je ne sais quoi.
Well, perhaps. But the transformer may indeed be part of the equation. Nelson Pass thinks so and made some First Watt amps with coupling transformers that tube aficionados like.Well -- there is that.
But I'm tellin' you -- it' s je ne sais quoi.
Take power supply noise. What positive attribute does it have?
I appreciated Stereophile pre-internet. Some good writers and Johns measurements were as good as it gets. I won’t hate on Jim Austin too much. He‘s captain on a sinking ship. Tick Tock and the crocodile is the internet and objective evaluation of equipment. I suppose he’s doing all he can at this point.Decades ago, John Atkinson‘s helped Stereophile gain credibility with audio aficionados. Kudos @John Atkinson!
Of course the effects of a tube amp can be measured. And measured trivially.
"Tube effect" as a category cannot because it's a made-up term.
The funny thing is that there is no doubt whatsoever you can recreate the exact tube harmonics and distortion with "solid state" stuff. But if you advertized it that way it would convince not one single tube believer.The other analogy is to say that “tube effect” = “circuit effect.” You can create special effects in many ways, and the same tube can be used in different circuits for different special effects… all of which can be measured using conventional lab instruments but not necessarily standard “dashboards.”
Yes, but if you wanted to recreate everything you have to account for the frequency response at multiple loads and the HD at different levels, rectifier sag, transformer effects, etc.The funny thing is that there is no doubt whatsoever you can recreate the exact tube harmonics and distortion with "solid state" stuff. But if you advertized it that way it would convince not one single tube believer.
??? Vast majority of claims about tube amp sound are unproven and fall in the category of imagination. Tube glows red and people think it sounds warm. If we eliminate this, there is hardly anything left of this so called "tube amp sound" to measure. For this reason, folks need to do a blind test first, prove what they say they are hearing (soundstage, sounding like live concert, etc.) and then we can talk about how to measure it.There is nothing about having a "tube amp" category that means it can't be measured,
it is not a "simulation" bro, it is a scientifically proven and mathematically accurate reproduction of the original.Yes, but if you wanted to recreate everything you have to account for the frequency response at multiple loads and the HD at different levels, rectifier sag, transformer effects, etc.
In a way, it is like the digital simulation of a piano. That’s easier than the simulation of a tube amp, but it’s still not trivial. (Look at something like the Roland V-Piano versus the way that everyone just uses wavetable synthesis+recorded samples).
Everything that end up creating the piano sound is trivially measurable but the actual measurements you need to perform to develop the model are not.
LOL this is exactly how many hifi reviews read, just replace "warm" and "sterile" with colors: "That sounds sooo red" or "a bit too blue"??? Vast majority of claims about tube amp sound are unproven and falls in the category of imagination. Tube glows red and people think it sounds warm. If we eliminate this, there is hardly anything left of this so called "tube amp sound" to measure. For this reason, folks need to do a blind test first, prove what they say they are hearing (soundstage, sounding like live concert, etc.) and then we can talk about how to measure it.
it is not a "simulation" bro, it is a scientifically proven and mathematically accurate reproduction of the original.
+1.??? Vast majority of claims about tube amp sound are unproven and falls in the category of imagination. Tube glows red and people think it sounds warm. If we eliminate this, there is hardly anything left of this so called "tube amp sound" to measure. For this reason, folks need to do a blind test first, prove what they say they are hearing (soundstage, sounding like live concert, etc.) and then we can talk about how to measure it.
Or if I want an effect, I can do it in solid state. There's nothing magic about the active device from a "sound" end. Assuming some device actually DOES have a distinguishable sound.The other analogy is to say that “tube effect” = “circuit effect.” You can create special effects in many ways, and the same tube can be used in different circuits for different special effects… all of which can be measured using conventional lab instruments but not necessarily standard “dashboards.”
Virtually all the load effect can be simply recreated by adding a resistor in series with the output of a SS amp to mimic the tube amp's higher output impedance. Rectifier sag drops the rails at high power, same as in a SS amp. Transformer effects tend to limited frequency response, easily emulated with EQ, and added distortion (plenty of distortion generators around). I think emulating a typical tube amp is easier than most people think. A good tube amp sounds like a good SS amp so there's nothing to mimic, with the possible exception of load impedance.Yes, but if you wanted to recreate everything you have to account for the frequency response at multiple loads and the HD at different levels, rectifier sag, transformer effects, etc.
I'd rather emulate a tube amp from a clean SS amp than try to model a piano. The piano is much more complex from a signal-processing point of view. Organs are easier than pianos, for that matter (my wife plays both).In a way, it is like the digital simulation of a piano. That’s easier than the simulation of a tube amp, but it’s still not trivial. (Look at something like the Roland V-Piano versus the way that everyone just uses wavetable synthesis+recorded samples).
Everything that end up creating the piano sound is trivially measurable but the actual measurements you need to perform to develop the model are not.
Agree... yet you would think this would be an important ability to learn if commenting on such matters.Answer is simple: they don't have critical listening abilities to hear what is plainly and provably there as unwanted aberrations.
Translation: Magic is real, folks. Santa is real. The Easter Bunny is real. Your feelings dictate reality. Science is for jerks.I just want to make it clear that the opinion expressed by JA1 here, though very well-supported, is not universally shared.
... there's another school of thought--embraced by certain other Stereophile writers--that believes that something less tangible is retained in some such amplifiers that is lost ... yet (and this is my opinion, as the magazine's editor), in a magazine committed to subjective experience--to listening--above all else, such opinions must not be dismissed out of hand.
LOL, I agree 99.9% of what you said. I think the “easier than most people think” is because what is easy for you is harder for ordinary people.Virtually all the load effect can be simply recreated by adding a resistor in series with the output of a SS amp to mimic the tube amp's higher output impedance. Rectifier sag drops the rails at high power, same as in a SS amp. Transformer effects tend to limited frequency response, easily emulated with EQ, and added distortion (plenty of distortion generators around). I think emulating a typical tube amp is easier than most people think.
Agree. The mistake that even or odd harmonic distortion profile is attributable to solid state or tubes is still repeated. It’s all circuit. You can do voltage or current feedback for solid state, etc.Or if I want an effect, I can do it in solid state. There's nothing magic about the active device from a "sound" end. Assuming some device actually DOES have a distinguishable sound.
Musicians happily buy that stuff in software. Software is generally cheaper than an actual tube amp, and one piece of software can act like 1000 different tube amps.The funny thing is that there is no doubt whatsoever you can recreate the exact tube harmonics and distortion with "solid state" stuff. But if you advertized it that way it would convince not one single tube believer.