Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[Blumlein 88]

Just looked at the measurements in this review at Stereophile. This amp is an obviously audible equalizer even into resistive loads. Wildly so with any real loudspeaker (other than Maggies). Dark gray is simulated loudspeaker load of Stereophile. The others are into resistors.

 

[GXAlan]

Musicians happily buy that stuff in software. Software is generally cheaper than an actual tube amp, and one piece of software can act like 1000 different tube amps.

What is surprising is that while we have the Smythe Realizer we don’t have stuff that works that way for audiophile hobbyists. I feel like a good VST plugin for audiophiles would be enjoyed by subjectivist audiophiles.

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thefxchain.com

It’s all cool science. Besides tube simulation, they have cabinet simulations:

“AmpliTube 5 premieres a re-engineered Cabinet section with all-new DSP. IK’s new Volumetric Impulse Response (VIR™) uses 600 IRs per speaker, 1,200 IRs for a 2-speaker cab and 2,400 IRs for a 4-speaker cab, capturing a massive 3D array of mic placement options, plus all the interactions between speakers, cabinet and floor for a completely true-to-life sound.”

 

[theREALdotnet]

 

[beefkabob]

What is surprising is that while we have the Smythe Realizer we don’t have stuff that works that way for audiophile hobbyists. I feel like a good VST plugin for audiophiles would be enjoyed by subjectivist audiophiles.

It’s all cool science. Besides tube simulation, they have cabinet simulations:

“AmpliTube 5 premieres a re-engineered Cabinet section with all-new DSP. IK’s new Volumetric Impulse Response (VIR™) uses 600 IRs per speaker, 1,200 IRs for a 2-speaker cab and 2,400 IRs for a 4-speaker cab, capturing a massive 3D array of mic placement options, plus all the interactions between speakers, cabinet and floor for a completely true-to-life sound.”

The people who want "tube sound" and other such nonsense are simply those who have swallowed the marketing BS. Some people are fascinated by the circuitry and tech itself, and that's cool, but that's not mainstream. The rest of us just want to listen to music we like, loud and clear.

I find all the soundstage trickery of virtual spaces to be obnoxious and just ruin the sound, which is some of what you're talking about. Most people just listen at whatever the setting was when they got the car or stereo.

 

[JiiPee]

What the audiophile world needs is a high quality tube amp for less than 2K€, and I think I have a solution.

Somebody should create an amplifier that has two 300B tubes beautifully presented on top of the amplifier chassis and connected to a dedicated circuit that would make them glow. Inside the chassis, the actual audio signals are routed so that they never go even near the tubes, but are handled by a modern solid state amplifier architecture aimed for SOTA measured results. This circuitry would never be mentioned anywhere and it would be completely sealed inside "electromagnetic shield" in the name of improved S/N.

The amplifier would be marketed as a new and improved 300B SET tube amplifier with slightly more power but absolutely retaining the hallowed tube sound. Examples would be sent to some gurus in the media for review. I bet they would all hear the trademark warm and luscious tube sound and give their most enthusiastic recommendations...

 

[Doodski]

What the audiophile world needs is a high quality tube amp for less than 2K€, and I think I have a solution.

Somebody should create an amplifier that has two 300B tubes beautifully presented on top of the amplifier chassis and connected to a dedicated circuit that would make them glow. Inside the chassis, the actual audio signals are routed so that they never go even near the tubes, but are handled by a modern solid state amplifier architecture aimed for SOTA measured results. This circuitry would never be mentioned anywhere and it would be completely sealed inside "electromagnetic shield" in the name of improved S/N.

The amplifier would be marketed as a new and improved 300B SET tube amplifier with slightly more power but absolutely retaining the hallowed tube sound. Examples would be sent to some gurus in the media for review. I bet they would all hear the trademark warm and luscious tube sound and give their most enthusiastic recommendations...

I pass the doobie to you @JiiPee...LoL.

 

[pma]

And there would have to be a “slow start”, uP driven circuit, to imitate slow wake-up of the tubes, after turn-on.

 

[theREALdotnet]

The tubes would have to have some function, if the amp works without or with broken tubes the game would be up

I suppose those 300Bs would make decent input buffers at unity gain. They would give the amp a humungous input impedance.

 

[pma]

The tubes would have to have some function, if the amp works without or with broken tubes the game would be up

I suppose those 300Bs would make decent input buffers at unity gain. They would give the amp a humungous input impedance.

+ inevitable hum.

 

[IPunchCholla]

What is surprising is that while we have the Smythe Realizer we don’t have stuff that works that way for audiophile hobbyists. I feel like a good VST plugin for audiophiles would be enjoyed by subjectivist audiophiles.

IK Multimedia AmpliTube 5 MAX

AmpliTube 5 Max Go all-in. A massive bundle of virtual amps & FX, with over 400 award-winning gear models, including: Fender® Collection 1 & 2, AmpliTube SVX 1 & 2, AmpliTube Orange®, AmpliTube Mesa/Boogie®, AmpliTube Slash, AmpliTube Jimi Hendrix™, AmpliTube Brian May, Dimebag Darrell CFH...

thefxchain.com

It’s all cool science. Besides tube simulation, they have cabinet simulations:

“AmpliTube 5 premieres a re-engineered Cabinet section with all-new DSP. IK’s new Volumetric Impulse Response (VIR™) uses 600 IRs per speaker, 1,200 IRs for a 2-speaker cab and 2,400 IRs for a 4-speaker cab, capturing a massive 3D array of mic placement options, plus all the interactions between speakers, cabinet and floor for a completely true-to-life sound.”

Yep. And at least on Macs you can put this in your audio chain via SoundSource. I don't normally have any of those in there, but threw it in to verify it works. Great for instruments. Terrible for listening.

 

[solderdude]

What is surprising is that while we have the Smythe Realizer we don’t have stuff that works that way for audiophile hobbyists. I feel like a good VST plugin for audiophiles would be enjoyed by subjectivist audiophiles.

I think audiophools are in the firm belief that any 'digital' or 'emulation' in the signal path would remove 'the magic' and would not use it. Main reasoning would be: those engineers have cloth ears and have no idea about true high-end audio.

I firmly believe that the eyes and wallet size are even bigger contributors to hearing 'true audiophile sound' than looking at specs and a limited set of measurements.
In audiophool land superlatives and 'sonic descriptions' describing wonders is all people want.

Both JA's can cater for all sides of the 'audiophile' range. Those that like to see expensive stuff measured and evaluated with 'technical ears' and those that want to read about the 'magic' they long to hear themselves.

Smart move to cater for both sides (a bit like Schiit does in the lower budget gear) when the goal is fame (name) and fortune (income) and be able to play with gear most people can just dream about.

This really is not about tubes and whether or not they 'remove' or 'add' anything or 'modify' the sound in some way... it is about 'the dream' vs 'hard facts' and wanting to cater for both.
Me... I just laugh about the 'magic' and simply have a look at some of the (limited) measurements occasionally if I am looking to know something about a specific piece of gear and a search engine stumbles on one of the entered key-words.
That saves me a lot of anger and keyboard warrior type of arguments with folks I don't know and are not willing to see 'life' in the same way as I do. Live and let live.

It is sometimes fun to discuss these things though. It won't change the world nor any aficionado as minds are already made up.

 

[spacevector]

As always, buttering both sides of the bread.

Only way to eat

 

[computer-audiophile]

... Some people are fascinated by the circuitry and tech itself, and that's cool, but that's not mainstream.

Good point!
And so it can also happen that people like to deal with tube amplifiers, who are quite science-affine.

 

[restorer-john]

Just looked at the measurements in this review at Stereophile. This amp is an obviously audible equalizer even into resistive loads. Wildly so with any real loudspeaker (other than Maggies). Dark gray is simulated loudspeaker load of Stereophile. The others are into resistors.

That series of plots has to take the record- surely.

 

[computer-audiophile]

well, of course!
Vaccum tube have je ne sais quoi.

Some have far more than others. Little 7-pin miniature power pentodes used for single-ended audio output in 1960s US color TVs -- not so much.
Direct heated power triodes like the 2A3, 300B, 45, or 50 are drippin' with it.

I don't like the sound of pentodes in general. Exception maybe the EL84 as power tube, this is a very sophisticated, relatively modern tube. I put a lot of work into building a small SE amplifier with it. It took several years of iterative work to perfect it. My transformer manufacturer was also involved in the process. It then became a private small batch for friends who were very happy to get one.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Just looked at the measurements in this review at Stereophile. This amp is an obviously audible equalizer even into resistive loads. Wildly so with any real loudspeaker (other than Maggies). Dark gray is simulated loudspeaker load of Stereophile. The others are into resistors.

$10,450 for the visual...$50 for the audio.

 

[Haslar]

Yep. And at least on Macs you can put this in your audio chain via SoundSource. I don't normally have any of those in there, but threw it in to verify it works. Great for instruments. Terrible for listening.

View attachment 285076

As a musician, I confirm that that type of digital emulation type of software is frequently used, in the studio, but more and more for live purposes as well. I personnally play more and more gigs with my guitar being played through a software emulator like this one, which then goes direct to the PA. So the sound people hear is 100% produced digitally.

Note that this kind of tube distortion emulator is used for all kinds of instruments, and also for vocals.

 

[fpitas]

Translation: Magic is real, folks. Santa is real. The Easter Bunny is real. Your feelings dictate reality. Science is for jerks.

You left off the payload: "So buy our advertisers' stuff now! And re-subscribe!"

 

[thecheapseats]

You left off the payload: "So buy our advertisers' stuff now! And re-subscribe!"

"payload"... funny!...

 

[Inner Space]

As a musician, I confirm that that type of digital emulation type of software is frequently used, in the studio, but more and more for live purposes as well. I personnally play more and more gigs with my guitar being played through a software emulator like this one, which then goes direct to the PA. So the sound people hear is 100% produced digitally.

That's my experience too. The scarcity of roadies changed many things. I'm a bass player and used to gig with big-iron amps and an Ampeg 8x10 "refrigerator". When I had to haul gear myself I changed pretty quick.

But it's worth noting that software simulations tend to be fairly generic in effect. For a long time I have been involved as a blind-tester for simulation writers, because my studio is old enough to have certain OG hardware units in it, so we're familiar with the original sounds. Except that ... what is "original" anymore? Most so-called original survivors have been individually fixed and kludged and modded and repaired many, many times, and they have all drifted dramatically over 50 or 60 years. They all sound different from each other now. So a thousand-measurement analysis of, say, a 1950s Fender Bassman will be a singularity - accurate for that specific survivor only.

Thus I think we're in a transitional period at the moment - sooner or later the pretend click-stop choice between tweed and British and 8x10 etc will give way to continuous sweeps, with an A - Z continuum of original sounds on offer. Similar tech could be easily imagined for domestic replay - perhaps with knobs for cool to warm, small hall to big, uptilt to downtilt, tube to transistor etc. Could be good.