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Stereophile has started calculating EPDR.

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MZKM

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In addition to that, I would need a new dummy load and wiring to handle such power.
On that note, is there a calculation for how much wattage a wiring gauge can handle for a certain length & impedance? I don’t see it often for residential audio but I see people in car audio always seeing you need Xawg for Y wattage. All I know is a chart showing the wattage loss per length & impedance.
 

keantoken

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The goal would be to not exceed the insulation temperature. So you would consult an ampacity chart. Once that was settled you would possibly look into damping factor. The wire may not burn up but may still be resistive enough or long enough to affect the frequency response of the speaker.
 

audio2design

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EPDR is relatively meaningless. It sounds impressive but for the most part other than pointing out some issues in BJT amps w.r.t. thermal loading of devices (when under designed) it has little practical impact. With MOSFETs you don't have secondary breakdown so not an issue really. Devices in Class-D amps don't operate in the linear region so EPDR is pretty meaningless.
 

Head_Unit

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EPDR is relatively meaningless. It sounds impressive but for the most part other than pointing out some issues in BJT amps w.r.t. thermal loading of devices (when under designed) it has little practical impact. With MOSFETs you don't have secondary breakdown so not an issue really. Devices in Class-D amps don't operate in the linear region so EPDR is pretty meaningless.
Well I think the point of EPDR is to compactify something complicated into single number metric to give not-knowledgeable consumers and idea how tough a particular speaker is to drive. Now, that does make me wonder how much difference it actually makes-a couple or three dB from a cheapie receiver to a beefier amp? I have no idea, it's an interesting question.

We drive a Focal setup from a Denon AVR-X3600H without any notable problems, and the 936 mains are certainly low impedance; I think the CC900 center as well and the SR900 surrounds don't know. We do run an AC infinity fan, and the playback level can be loud but not "OMG where are my earplugs" loud.

Can you expand on the statements you made? I used to work in amplifier product planning and therefore know enough to be dangerous ha ha, I'm curious about more detail about how nonresistive loads could cause problems with different amp types. I got my long-ago workplace to buy a Power Cube, and definitely some amps had more problems with nonresistive loads, MOSFETs included. Class D I don't recall too much as I moved into navigation testing and iPod/iPhone development by the time those became more widespread.
 

valerianf

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kschmit2

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https://www.stereophile.com/content/goldenear-brx-bookshelf-reference-x-loudspeaker-measurements
And he is going back to previous reviews and adding this in.

EPDR (Equivalent Peak Dissipation Resistance) takes the impedance and phase data and computes a new impedance that shows what equivalent load the amplifier will see. This takes the guesswork out of knowing how an amplifier will handle a given speaker if we have measurements of that amp into low impedance.

For example, in the BRX link above, here is the raw impedance & phase:
820GEBRXfig1.jpg

The raw impedance never goes past 3ohm. However, at 135Hz where the impedance is ~5ohm and the phase around -45°, the EPDR is 1.53ohm, over 3x lower.

This is something that I believe would greatly benefit Amir’s reviews, we just need to know the calculation.

For those providing EQ adjustments to speakers measured here, it would also be interesting to see how they effect the EDPR.

I found the following article very interesting:
https://www.burosch.de/images/Schueller-lecture-03.pdf (German and English)
Now, the quality of sound can be measured!
Do amplifier measurement results really mirror the sound these amplifiers produce? Based on his life-long experience on measurement and test technology Peter Schüller, the well known head of the Stuttgart (Germany) based test lab of Germany’s most important test magazine ‘stereoplay’, together with his colleague Johannes Maier, has developed an innovative approach to throw comprehensible light on the relationship between amp measurement results and the quality of sound of that specific amp.
 

keantoken

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According to the above link EPDR value and power dissipation in the amplifier are verified for a class AB amp.
For sure EPDR is not relevant for a class D amp (dissipation is not function of the load impedance).

Yes, and in normal conditions secondary breakdown does not affect amplifier dissipation. While it is occurring the amplifier is still in control of the transistor so it's dissipation is as predicted for a class AB amplifier, just there is a hot spot forming on the die which will kill the transistor unless protection engages. A very nonlinear time-dependent model would be needed for EPDR to consider secondary breakdown, but at the very least we would have to change the name to something else. A good search term is Spirito effect.
 

audio2design

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Well I think the point of EPDR is to compactify something complicated into single number metric to give not-knowledgeable consumers and idea how tough a particular speaker is to drive. Now, that does make me wonder how much difference it actually makes-a couple or three dB from a cheapie receiver to a beefier amp? I have no idea, it's an interesting question.

We drive a Focal setup from a Denon AVR-X3600H without any notable problems, and the 936 mains are certainly low impedance; I think the CC900 center as well and the SR900 surrounds don't know. We do run an AC infinity fan, and the playback level can be loud but not "OMG where are my earplugs" loud.

Can you expand on the statements you made? I used to work in amplifier product planning and therefore know enough to be dangerous ha ha, I'm curious about more detail about how nonresistive loads could cause problems with different amp types. I got my long-ago workplace to buy a Power Cube, and definitely some amps had more problems with nonresistive loads, MOSFETs included. Class D I don't recall too much as I moved into navigation testing and iPod/iPhone development by the time those became more widespread.

Define "had problems". Stability? Did not meet stated power? Distortion went up?

EPDR does not define how "difficult" a load is to drive, it is only a statement of maximum thermal dissipation of an amplifier that works in the linear region. It does not the point of maximum current delivery. Yes, a low EPDR could push an amplifier beyond its thermal limits, but unlikely given the nature of music. It could, emphasis on could, cause an amplifier failure vis-a-vis secondary breakdown of BJT devices, but how often do we see speakers with very low EPDR hooked up to what would typically be low cost BJT gear running near its limits. Perhaps poorly designed gear, but the devices are likely to be robust.

Yes non resistive loads can cause stability issues (mainly from excessive capacitance but not exclusively). Yes a reactive load will limit maximum power delivery just like low power factor will in an AC supplied device. Yes on continuous tones it can generate excessive thermal loading that may not be caught by electrical current limiting.
 

Head_Unit

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[see below]
Define "had problems". Stability? Did not meet stated power? Distortion went up?
@ It's been a long long time so tough to remember in detail. Big reduction in output voltage at inductive/capacitive phase angles, presumably because the amp could not supply enough current. There were some ugly behaviors at clipping like DC and spurious waveforms, I'd think also related to protection.
@ Don't know about distortion since we were never testing that at nonresistive phase angles. Has anyone? That could be an interesting area of research although see below

EPDR does not define how "difficult" a load is to drive...a low EPDR could push an amplifier beyond its thermal limits, but unlikely given the nature of music.
@ I see, I wouldn't disagree with that.
@ What I would expect is that if you had a speaker with a 200 ohm EPDR, even an inexpensive amp could push to its voltage rail before clipping. Whereas if the speaker had an EPDR of 0.2, you would see clipping at voltages well below. In other words the output power would limit quite below the rated power.
@ That is a different animal than power dissipation, so discussion is maybe at crossed lines here.
@ Also if you convert to decibels, how significant? I don't know.

...how often do we see speakers with very low EPDR hooked up to what would typically be low cost BJT gear running near its limits.
@ I'd posit we don't much idea, really, if by "low cost BJT" we are including AVRs.
@ Even on forums for enthusiasts, you can find many threads asking about the "ohms" of the speakers and revealing ignorance-and that's just the folks who know enough to ask, never mind the general public, so we certainly cannot say that people are all careful not to connect "difficult" speakers to less "beefy" amps.
@ Though back to what I said above and "near its limits" how often is this really a problem ????
@ I wonder if I could find a decent but not crazy expensive storage oscilloscope and/or truly fast peak hold voltmeter app or something, to see if that X3600H is even coming near its voltage rails...

I believe Atkinson's use of EPDR is not anything to do with long-term dissipation. Rather a kind of guide of which speakers will stress amplifiers more such that they deliver less power than they should. Certainly it's not some magical figure of all merit, it's just a way to try and compare speakers beyond the rated "ohms" but distilled down to a number people can use. For instance, I'll often see threads where the OP asks about how big an amp is needed and people chime in with room and distance and dB BUT nobody ever notes that difficult speakers may need a "beefier" amp...which is more than just the power spec into resistors anyway.
 
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audio2design

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Define "had problems". Stability? Did not meet stated power? Distortion went up?
@ It's been a long long time so tough to remember in detail. Big reduction in output voltage at inductive/capacitive phase angles, presumably because the amp could not supply enough current.

- That does not follow. The maximum current does not go up. The expected power may not be what you expected, but there is no good reasoning for max voltage to be reduced beyond what would occur based on impedance (not EPDR). Whether 4 ohm from resistance or impedance, the peak current is the same.


There were some ugly behaviors at clipping like DC and spurious waveforms, I'd think also related to protection.

- I would consider that a design fault.


EPDR does not define how "difficult" a load is to drive...a low EPDR could push an amplifier beyond its thermal limits, but unlikely given the nature of music.
@ I see, I wouldn't disagree with that.
@ What I would expect is that if you had a speaker with a 200 ohm EPDR, even an inexpensive amp could push to its voltage rail before clipping. Whereas if the speaker had an EPDR of 0.2, you would see clipping at voltages well below. In other words the output power would limit quite below the rated power.
@ That is a different animal than power dissipation, so discussion is maybe at crossed lines here.
@ Also if you convert to decibels, how significant? I don't know.

- Well obviously 200 and 0.2 are much different beasts, but how about a 4 ohm speaker with EPDR of 3.5 and one with an EPDR of 2.5. The maximum volume at the EPDR peak will be different for the two different speakers, but that does not make it "more difficult" to drive, it just means the maximum power deliverable is different, assuming the limitation is voltage based and not current based. If the limit was current based, there would be no difference.

...how often do we see speakers with very low EPDR hooked up to what would typically be low cost BJT gear running near its limits.
@ I'd posit we don't much idea, really, if by "low cost BJT" we are including AVRs.
@ Even on forums for enthusiasts, you can find many threads asking about the "ohms" of the speakers and revealing ignorance-and that's just the folks who know enough to ask, never mind the general public, so we certainly cannot say that people are all careful not to connect "difficult" speakers to less "beefy" amps.

- EPDR is not the same as impedance (still measured in ohms) and still represents a thermal issue, not any other significant issue. Most AVR consumer level are moving to Class-D and previously a mix or MOSFET and BJT. Consumer AVRs tend to have somewhat robust protection, especially with integrated chip amps. What type of speakers are these normally hooked to? .... generally pretty run of the mill speakers without ugly cross-overs that lead to nasty EPDR dips.

@ Though back to what I said above and "near its limits" how often is this really a problem ????
@ I wonder if I could find a decent but not crazy expensive storage oscilloscope and/or truly fast peak hold voltmeter app or something, to see if that X3600H is even coming near its voltage rails...

- Analog comparator

I believe Atkinson's use of EPDR is not anything to do with long-term dissipation. Rather a kind of guide of which speakers will stress amplifiers more such that they deliver less power than they should. Certainly it's not some magical figure of all merit, it's just a way to try and compare speakers beyond the rated "ohms" but distilled down to a number people can use. For instance, I'll often see threads where the OP asks about how big an amp is needed and people chime in with room and distance and dB BUT nobody ever notes that difficult speakers may need a "beefier" amp...which is more than just the power spec into resistors anyway.

- And being poorly understood, it is used to make all kinds of conclusions that are simply not true. Most speakers don't have nasty EPDR dips, and if they do, you don't need "beefy", you probably just need more watts.
 

georgehifi

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And being poorly understood, it is used to make all kinds of conclusions that are simply not true. Most speakers don't have nasty EPDR dips, and if they do, you don't need "beefy", you probably just need more watts.

So what that says, you can just get a 3000w $298usd to drive them? eg Wilson Alexia
https://www.storedj.com.au/behringe...aGCwvWKLZwEHV8T4fR9bDGH1xXfxXfkUaAt9tEALw_wcB

EPDR is real to the load of speaker to an amp, and in the bass it defiantly demands current, EG 0.9ohm epdr Wilson Alexia.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/1213Walexfig01.jpg

ML ML2 25w!!! monoblocks will sound better driving that 0.9ohm epdr load in the bass, far better than the 3000w Behringer Class-D above would sound
http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/05/504/50446/c.jpg

Cheers George
 
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SIY

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There's a significant flaw in this metric. I'm currently (ouch!) working on a better method. Initial results look interesting.

I think that it will likely be complete and published by December.
 

audio2design

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So what that says, you can just get a 3000w $298usd to drive them? eg Wilson Alexia
https://www.storedj.com.au/behringe...aGCwvWKLZwEHV8T4fR9bDGH1xXfxXfkUaAt9tEALw_wcB

EPDR is real to the load of speaker to an amp, and in the bass it defiantly demands current, EG 0.9ohm epdr Wilson Alexia.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/1213Walexfig01.jpg

ML ML2 25w!!! monoblocks will sound better driving that 0.9ohm epdr load in the bass, far better than the 3000w Behringer Class-D above would sound
http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/05/504/50446/c.jpg

Cheers George

George you have been told this untold times on Audiogon by real amp designers that your logic is totally flawed wrt EPDR. Do we need to go through this again. There are serious electronics experts here who know their stuff.


EPDR is not the real load, it is the equivalent thermal load on an amplifier working in the linear region. That is all. NO!!!! EPDR does in no way require more current. Regular impedance defines max current. EPDR indicates a phase shift such that current does not follow voltage like a simple resistive load.


I don't know if the Behringer is stable into 2 ohms (impedance min) but if it is, it will likely have no issue with the 1 ohm EPDR as it does not work in the linear region. It will like all amps potentially have lower peak power due to the phase shift just like having a non unity power factor.


Again let's not do this again. Please go back and learn more about this and how amps work.
 

audio2design

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There's a significant flaw in this metric. I'm currently (ouch!) working on a better method. Initial results look interesting.

I think that it will likely be complete and published by December.

What aspect of it are you trying to fix?
 

georgehifi

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George you have been told this untold times EPDR is not the real load

Sorry you are the only one so far I've seen denying the exitance of EPDR as a real load presented to an amp, especially in the bass where it demands big current delivery if it's low impedance as the 0.9ohm EPDR of the Wilson Alexia's.
 
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SIY

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What aspect of it are you trying to fix?

That was a teaser. I think there's a very fundamental flaw in the approach, but I'll keep that one until my article appears. Then have at me!
 

audio2design

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Sorry you are the only one so far I've seen denying the exitance of EPDR as a real load presented to an amp, especially in the bass where it demands big current delivery if it's low impedance as the 0.9ohm EPDR of the Wilson Alexia's.

George it is quite obvious you lack the background in amplifier architecture to contribute on this topic. I have seen at least 4 actual amplifier designers not including me school you on this but you continue with an ignorant take. This is not Audiogon. That is not going to fly here. EPDR give indication of phase of the load and hence thermal load but is not a figure that represents the peak current load. Many have asked you to justify your claims in your own words. I will ask you to do it again. Then in your own words tell me what impact this has (preferably with some real numbers) on a Class D amp.
 

audio2design

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There's a significant flaw in this metric. I'm currently (ouch!) working on a better method. Initial results look interesting.

I think that it will likely be complete and published by December.

As a short form to indicate possible thermal loading issues in a linear amp or a possible reduction in peak power I don't have a conceptual issue. Problem is some people obviously don't understand it (not implying you) and make all kinds of false conclusions based on it.
 

georgehifi

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George it is quite obvious you lack the background in amplifier architecture to contribute on this topic. I have seen at least 4 actual amplifier designers not including me school you on this but you continue with an ignorant take. This is not Audiogon. That is not going to fly here.

Like I said your the only one so far that doesn't believe in EPDR as being a real load value to amplifiers. We tried it on Edgar Kramer's Soundstage resident speaker Wilson Alexia's, and a 400w Class-D just didn't cut it in the low bass compared to a 100w Gryphon.
And you can take your holier than thou attitude, (and you know the rest)
 
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