Stereophile and Audio Cables

[Doodski]

IIRC Thed from SR doing the attack on Gene.... (and IIRC Thed is a vaccine denier as well).

I'm simply just shaking my head @ this attack.

 

[Victor Martell]

I'm simply just shaking my head @ this attack.

Thanks to @Chrispy for the fact check and, yes, indeed that shows the level of the personalities involved. Head slap with shake indeed.

 

[MattHooper]

It’s simple. Does the waveform come out of the cable the same as it went in? Except in boundary cases of grossly incorrect designs, yes.

Agree that does seem simple.

The belief system, however, denies that the waveform we can measure tells the whole story. Yet we can measure it far more finely than we can hear it—to the level of distortions typically 120 dB less powerful than the signal, when we can hear, like, 70, and then only with special techniques and test signals.

The controlled subjective testing we ask for here is merely a way to empirically validate to the non-technical what is already in abundant evidence from engineering analysis.

Nice way of putting it!

Rick “JA knows this” Denney

Human psychology = not so simple.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'm simply just shaking my head @ this attack.

It's not hard to understand if you think ASR is actually becoming so successful that "victory" over anti-scientific nonsense is within sight. If that happens then the whole "price=quality, measurements=meaningless" industry will collapse and many charlatans' incomes with it... people can get very nasty when they perceive their occupation is under threat.

I don't know that the cause has advanced that far, but we know something is going right if the hardcore anti-science subjectivists are bothered.

Personally I think there will always be a market for subjective reviews even if the "ASR way" took over 100%. People just want to hear the opinions of other people even if they already know the outcome. The subjectivists would only have to give up on some of their unproductive assertions, but the industry as a whole wouldn't change radically IMO. We'd hopefully see a total dying-off of the gold-plated ethernet cables and such, but some people will still want fancy s*** even if they know it doesn't do anything to the sound.

 

[Sal1950]

Furutech NCF Clear Line Passive Plugs

A cryogenic/demagnetisation process and proprietary piezoelectric crystals lie at the heart of Furutech's 'Clear Line' plugs. We cut through the noise. Cryogenic treatment is key to almost every Furutech cable and connector, as is the promise of exceptional build and finish quality [HFN Mar '18].

www.hifinews.com

Keith

A audiophool and his money are soon parted.
Specially with a good BS story on "Cryogenic treatment"

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you expect to hear something, you'll almost always hear something. I've had it happen to me more than once where I twiddled an EQ knob in a DAW that was actually inactive... but I heard something anyway.

That's why we owe it to them to give them a good education on the science of the materials AND expectation bias.
If we don't, we're no better than the snake-oil peddlers of this garbage., it's called extortion thru mis-information.

 

[Doodski]

It's not hard to understand if you think ASR is actually becoming so successful that "victory" over anti-scientific nonsense is within sight. If that happens then the whole "price=quality, measurements=meaningless" industry will collapse and many charlatans' incomes with it... people can get very nasty when they perceive their occupation is under threat.

I don't know that the cause has advanced that far, but we know something is going right if the hardcore anti-science subjectivists are bothered.

Personally I think there will always be a market for subjective reviews even if the "ASR way" took over 100%. People just want to hear the opinions of other people even if they already know the outcome. The subjectivists would only have to give up on some of their unproductive assertions, but the industry as a whole wouldn't change radically IMO. We'd hopefully see a total dying-off of the gold-plated ethernet cables and such, but some people will still want fancy s*** even if they know it doesn't do anything to the sound.

Hehe... Bling is |{inG for some people that's for sure.

 

[MattHooper]

Personally I think there will always be a market for subjective reviews even if the "ASR way" took over 100%. People just want to hear the opinions of other people even if they already know the outcome. The subjectivists would only have to give up on some of their unproductive assertions, but the industry as a whole wouldn't change radically IMO. We'd hopefully see a total dying-off of the gold-plated ethernet cables and such, but some people will still want fancy s*** even if they know it doesn't do anything to the sound.

Agreed. I look at the measurements in Amir's...or Erin's reviews, but I'm also a social creature, I have subjective experiences, I enjoy communicating with other people about those experiences, so I also want to know "what did you think of it?" It may or may not be informative, or sway me, but it's interesting either way.

 

[pma]

It’s simple. Does the waveform come out of the cable the same as it went in?

Be careful with such statements.

 

[NTK]

Be careful with such statements.

View attachment 357975

A blip that is not even 60 ns wide (< period of 17 MHz)? Are you spreading FUD again?

 

[Palladium]

It's not hard to understand if you think ASR is actually becoming so successful that "victory" over anti-scientific nonsense is within sight. If that happens then the whole "price=quality, measurements=meaningless" industry will collapse and many charlatans' incomes with it... people can get very nasty when they perceive their occupation is under threat.

I don't know that the cause has advanced that far, but we know something is going right if the hardcore anti-science subjectivists are bothered.

Personally I think there will always be a market for subjective reviews even if the "ASR way" took over 100%. People just want to hear the opinions of other people even if they already know the outcome. The subjectivists would only have to give up on some of their unproductive assertions, but the industry as a whole wouldn't change radically IMO. We'd hopefully see a total dying-off of the gold-plated ethernet cables and such, but some people will still want fancy s*** even if they know it doesn't do anything to the sound.

Them getting into IT products is pretty suicidal, if you ask me.

 

[kemmler3D]

Them getting into IT products is pretty suicidal, if you ask me.

They've sold the same people boxes of dirt with plugs on the outside, plugs that don't connect to anything, and magic rocks to place near your equipment. An overpriced CAT6 cable is something of a reprieve compared to some audiophile BS out there.

 

[Somafunk]

A audiophool and his money are soon parted.
Specially with a good BS story on "Cryogenic treatment"

See my post in thread 'The bestiary of the most common (and debunked by science) audiophile myths'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...y-science-audiophile-myths.53076/post-1920316

I completely debunk the claims of Emlin regarding the placement of his router sounds better when situated behind his freezer

 

[kemmler3D]

A blip that is not even 60 ns wide (< period of 17 MHz)? Are you spreading FUD again?

I think the gist is that "waveforms coming out different than they went in" is still open to abuse if you're unscrupulous about what kinds of distortion you're willing to assert are relevant to sound quality.

 

[kemmler3D]

Yeah. But I think there’s a catch. I see a cycle of buyer’s euphoria followed by slow return to ground zero and the itch to upgrade comes back. It’s the Escher stairway to a better system.

Indeed. But for some reason they prefer the explanation that "everything matters" and "tweaks" pretty much always effect the sound, no matter how implausible... vs. this.

What makes more sense, that science is unable to fully characterize audio despite massive evidence to the contrary, and cognitive biases don't apply to you if you don't want them to? OR expectation biases work the way pretty much every experiment shows they work?

 

[Axo1989]

A blip that is not even 60 ns wide (< period of 17 MHz)? Are you spreading FUD again?

Only "FUD" if you are semantically challenged. Questions like"does the waveform come out of the cable the same as it went in?" rely on vernacular meanings of phrases like "the same".

The implicit meaning is "significantly" or "audibly" of course. Agreed meanings and implicit assumptions shared by in-group members are unproblematic, provided discourse occurs among the group (or people who understand the language of the group). Outside that, more careful language, and clarifying of assumptions, is necessary.

 

[Steve H]

1. As I mentioned in my first post, I presume that his technical defence of cables sounding different fall short, but I'm not sharp enough with electrical theory to detail how, myself. So I presented this to, among other things, allow more knowledgeable people here to "call out" exactly why the response was insufficient.

2. I default to assuming JA is giving arguments that he finds plausible. So to the degree he's mistaken, it's still an honest representation of where he stands on the issue.
So as I said, I appreciate JA took a technical approach in his response, and while others feel his being wrong indicates some issue with integrity, I don't necessarily and still have a lot of respect for JA. Even when he may be wrong I think overall he's been a class act. YMMV.

Answer to 1. Or more likely you didn’t have courage to ask John Atkinson directly and be disappointed with his response. You are a fan after all.

Answer to 2. At RMAF 2016 I introduced myself to John with you were wrong in a speaker review and asked why reviewers don’t volume match. He told me his listening room was not set up for proper speaker placement. But he gave the speakers a Class A rating. Then he said volume matching would interfere with getting the magazine out. Now read Listening #166. Some pretty lame defenses for what the magazine does.

You are wrong about John’s default. It is to get the magazine out, keep advertisers happy and keep Paul Miller of HIFI News in the lifestyle he is accustomed to. I follow AVTech Media’s financial reporting (Stereophile’s parent). They are doing well for a publishing company.

Fast forward to 2023 LAOCAS Annual Gala. John and I had dinner afterward. MQA came up. An interesting conversion between the victor me and John the vanquished.

 

[Beave]

 

[Steve H]

The Stereophile and The Absolute Sound readers get upset when I know the editors and reviewers. I interact with them and they don’t.

 

[MattHooper]

The Stereophile and The Absolute Sound readers get upset when I know the editors and reviewers. I interact with them and they don’t.

That's not why you got that response from me.

You asked why I didn't address John's technical arguments myself. In good faith I gave you my honest answer.

Your response was to not accept my answer and instead default to implying I was being a coward and dishonest.

That type of bad faith interaction is what you were being called on.

You may certainly be correct about JA, but the above is also why I'd be suspicious of your interpretation of JA's beliefs as well.

 

[Axo1989]

The Stereophile and The Absolute Sound readers get upset when I know the editors and reviewers. I interact with them and they don’t.

The old insider vanity ploy? Nice try, but nets you an ignore list spot from me, FFS.