Speaker upgrades or keep LS50 Metas with Subs

[randomer]

Current Setup​

• Room Dimensions: 18' x 17' living room with very high slanted ceilings.
• Usage: 60% Music / 40% Home Theater.
• Music Configuration: 2.2 (favorites include vocal-heavy soundtracks, classic rock and acoustic genres).
• Home Theater Configuration: 6.2.4.
  • Front L/R: KEF LS50 Meta pair.
  • Center: Ascend CMT-340SEv1 (currently disabled, dialog unclear, boomy bass; using a phantom center).
  • Surround L/R: 2 Def Tech Bipolar BP-2X.
  • Heights & Surround Back: 6 Polk OMW3.
  • Subwoofers: 2x Monoprice M-12 V2 THX.
• Electronics:
  • AVR: Denon x3800H.
  • L/R Amp: Hypex NC252MP (2x250W).
  • Room Correction: Audyssey XT32 + Dirac Live Full Bandwidth.
  • Bass Management: MiniDSP 2x4HD + UMIK-1 + REW.
• Room Treatment: Thick curtains cover a large window behind the main listening position and there’s a carpet between the mains and the MLP. No other room treatments currently.

---

The Problem​

Music:
While the LS50 Metas image beautifully, I feel they fall short on soundstage (horizontal, vertical and depth) and overall scale. The listening experience isn’t as immersive or engaging as I’d like and the vocals lack the lush texture and richness I hear in theaters.

Home Theater:
The CMT-340SE center speaker has unclear dialogue due to its MTM configuration, so I’ve resorted to using a phantom center for now. The overall HT experience feels disjointed—speakers don’t seem to vanish into the 3D soundscape but rather act independently, breaking immersion.

---

Questions​

1. Are the LS50 Metas appropriate for a room of this size? Would upgrading to floorstanding speakers provide a better sense of scale and soundstage? The Metas can get plenty loud, so SPL isn’t a concern, but would towers offer a noticeable improvement if REW measurements for both are similar (given the subs crossed at 80Hz)?
2. Could the subwoofer placement be impacting the soundstage? My subs are asymmetrically placed based on REW measurements to optimize response but I wonder if this could be affecting the overall sound cohesion.

---

Options​

I’m considering the following upgrades/sidegrades?

1. (Used) LS50 Meta Center (and call it a day?): ~$500.
2. (Used) Wharfedale Lintons 85th Anniversary pair: ~$600.
3. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C205: ~$1,700.
4. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C208: ~$2,200.
5. (New) Revel F226Be pair+ C426Be: ~$6,600.
6. (New) Revel F228Be pair+ C426Be: ~$8,620.
7. (New) Philharmonic HT Tower pair+ HT Center: ~$6,000.

---

Seeking Advice​

• Are my observations about the Metas valid or am I overthinking this?
• If I switch to one of these options, am I likely to see a meaningful improvement or am I approaching the point of diminishing returns? Should I consider anything else?

I’ve done an exhaustive amount of research and feel overwhelmed. Any clarity or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

 

[thewas]

I doubt you will get better soundstage from the alternatives you listed which are not point sources and also wider radiation so might project wider but more diffuse. The "lush texture and richness" can be possibly achieved with a different FR target, could you post your current DIRAC measurements and how large is your listening distance from the front loudspeakers? If I were you I would probably just change the centre speaker (which we should keep in mind is the most important one) to also one LS50 Meta and rather experiment with loudspeaker placement, EQ targets and room acoustics.

 

[Marc v E]

Current Setup​

• Room Dimensions: 18' x 17' living room with very high slanted ceilings.
• Usage: 60% Music / 40% Home Theater.
• Music Configuration: 2.2 (favorites include vocal-heavy soundtracks, classic rock and acoustic genres).
• Home Theater Configuration: 6.2.4.
  • Front L/R: KEF LS50 Meta pair.
  • Center: Ascend CMT-340SEv1 (currently disabled, dialog unclear, boomy bass; using a phantom center).
  • Surround L/R: 2 Def Tech Bipolar BP-2X.
  • Heights & Surround Back: 6 Polk OMW3.
  • Subwoofers: 2x Monoprice M-12 V2 THX.
• Electronics:
  • AVR: Denon x3800H.
  • L/R Amp: Hypex NC252MP (2x250W).
  • Room Correction: Audyssey XT32 + Dirac Live Full Bandwidth.
  • Bass Management: MiniDSP 2x4HD + UMIK-1 + REW.
• Room Treatment: Thick curtains cover a large window behind the main listening position and there’s a carpet between the mains and the MLP. No other room treatments currently.

---

The Problem​

Music:
While the LS50 Metas image beautifully, I feel they fall short on soundstage (horizontal, vertical and depth) and overall scale. The listening experience isn’t as immersive or engaging as I’d like and the vocals lack the lush texture and richness I hear in theaters.

Home Theater:
The CMT-340SE center speaker has unclear dialogue due to its MTM configuration, so I’ve resorted to using a phantom center for now. The overall HT experience feels disjointed—speakers don’t seem to vanish into the 3D soundscape but rather act independently, breaking immersion.

---

Questions​

1. Are the LS50 Metas appropriate for a room of this size? Would upgrading to floorstanding speakers provide a better sense of scale and soundstage? The Metas can get plenty loud, so SPL isn’t a concern, but would towers offer a noticeable improvement if REW measurements for both are similar (given the subs crossed at 80Hz)?
2. Could the subwoofer placement be impacting the soundstage? My subs are asymmetrically placed based on REW measurements to optimize response but I wonder if this could be affecting the overall sound cohesion.

---

Options​

I’m considering the following upgrades/sidegrades?

1. (Used) LS50 Meta Center (and call it a day?): ~$500.
2. (Used) Wharfedale Lintons 85th Anniversary pair: ~$600.
3. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C205: ~$1,700.
4. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C208: ~$2,200.
5. (New) Revel F226Be pair+ C426Be: ~$6,600.
6. (New) Revel F228Be pair+ C426Be: ~$8,620.
7. (New) Philharmonic HT Tower pair+ HT Center: ~$6,000.

---

Seeking Advice​

• Are my observations about the Metas valid or am I overthinking this?
• If I switch to one of these options, am I likely to see a meaningful improvement or am I approaching the point of diminishing returns? Should I consider anything else?

I’ve done an exhaustive amount of research and feel overwhelmed. Any clarity or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!

My impression is that you've done everything right regarding speakers, amps, subs and eq. If I interpret your situation correctly and correlate it to my own, you would benefit not overthinking possible causes but just experiment and rule out.

My startpoint would be that from my experience the ls50 image great, sound very neutral in open space and imo are somewhat bass shy. (Smallish drivers combined with small enclosure may not be enough for these speakers to shine in a relatively large space. And the ls50 have good bass until 100 hertz and then sloping down. Plus a small cabinet. That doesn't help either.)

What I would do is some solid out of the box experiments to rule out what cannot be the cause:

First I would do is in eq to create a more downward slope and treble roll off. My speakers have that naturally and sound lush and impressive while never fatiguing. Your speakers plus subs should be able to create that experience. See if you like it. And continue with experiment 2.

Second is dynamic eq: iirc this feature is available in denon avrs. It gives more bass at lower levels to compensate for our ears lesser sensitivity at these frequencies. Best feature ever imo.

Third experiment would be to loan some revels/elac dbr 62 that are small monitors and revels with larger volume that are quite easy to drive with your amp. The dbr has a bass emphesis at 100 hz and slopes down less in bass than the ls50. Should make integrating with subs easier. Larger drivers in a big tower speaker move more air easily with their larger drivers, which is something I can hear and appreciate. You might too.

Btw: ime great imagining is the core strength of the ls50. If it does not do soundstage width well you might benefit by not pointing the speakers toward your ears but about 2 feet away from your ears. Ie pointing straight at the wall when in an equilateral traingle. Erin has a great video about that. Also having side walls relatively close (3 to 6 feet) could cause extra reflections giving the impression of a bigger soundstage. Another possibility could be that your seat/couch is straight against a wall which messes up the direct sound.

 

[Marc v E]

---

Questions​

1. Are the LS50 Metas appropriate for a room of this size? Would upgrading to floorstanding speakers provide a better sense of scale and soundstage? The Metas can get plenty loud, so SPL isn’t a concern, but would towers offer a noticeable improvement if REW measurements for both are similar (given the subs crossed at 80Hz)?
2. Could the subwoofer placement be impacting the soundstage? My subs are asymmetrically placed based on REW measurements to optimize response but I wonder if this could be affecting the overall sound cohesion.

---

​

My best direct answers, educated guesses:​

1) Probably no to the ls50; yes to floorstanders regarding scale and soundstage. You loose some imaging focus. That is the trade-off. I'm by no means an expert on revel speakers, but judging by their size and reviews I suspect the F206 to be the sweat spot within the range.
2) I think not. It's easy to check though: shut the subs down and play music only through the ls50.

Regarding the center speaker I would expect the ls50 to shine in this spot. I would use it for this application.

 

[ehabheikal]

1- A great upgrade could be r3 meta and r3 meta center

 

[uwotm8]

1. (New) Revel F226Be pair+ C426Be: ~$6,600.
2. (New) Revel F228Be pair+ C426Be: ~$8,620.

My bet is any of these will be lightyears anhead of LS50 in overall feel and scale of sound... oh, my non-native English.
I'd just visit a dealer who has some Revels you want and if he has no KEF in store then just brought mine pair and compared. But jokes off, 3-way floorstander with 2x8", it's not even a comparison. And no sub(s) hooked to 5" monitors will give you that sound.

 

[NTK]

My bet is any of these will be lightyears anhead of LS50 in overall feel and scale of sound... oh, my non-native English.
I'd just visit a dealer who has some Revels you want and if he has no KEF in store then just brought mine pair and compared. But jokes off, 3-way floorstander with 2x8", it's not even a comparison. And no sub(s) hooked to 5" monitors will give you that sound.

Wrong. See mitcho's comparison of the LS50 with subs and JBL 4722.

KEF LS50 (David) Versus JBL 4722 Cinema (Goliath) Speaker Comparison with Binaural Recordings

Here are two extreme opposite loudspeakers when it comes to sensitivity, size, directivity, topology and looks. Does the big speaker sound perceptually larger than the smaller speaker? Do the speakers sound the same if eq’d the same and level matched? Does the LS50 sound perceptually bigger when ...

audiophilestyle.com

 

[uwotm8]

Wrong. See mitcho's comparison

Luckily he had it recorded. To me there's no comparison at all.
Big speakers sound big and there is a difference when upper bas and lower midrange is played by 10" instead of 5". I'd even agree that bigger speakers do not play it as clean but damn they sound warm, smooth and natural - unlike dwarf pushing beyond limits trying to look as a big guy lol.

Actually a good link for OP to check if midrange beefness and warmth is that missing part.

 

[NTK]

Luckily he had it recorded. To me there's no comparison at all.
Big speakers sound big and there is a difference when upper bas and lower midrange is played by 10" instead of 5". I'd even agree that bigger speakers do not play it as clean but damn they sound warm, smooth and natural - unlike dwarf pushing beyond limits trying to look as a big guy lol.

Actually a good link for OP to check if midrange beefness and warmth is that missing part.

That's what you said. Here is what mitcho said. Should we take your words, or mitcho's.

 

[uwotm8]

That's what you said. Here is what mitcho said

He said that "it's not that bad" and "...for $1000". Can't argue with that.
"I am happily listening to them now without subs but will be adding the Rythmik L12’s later when I upgrade the subs for my 4722’s" - priorities are set

Listening to the records there's no question which is which. And the empty sounding speaker sounds cleaner, what a surprise.

Should we take your words, or mitcho's.

You should take what makes you enjoy your music instead of eternal cope, switching amps, subs and calibration along with telling yourself "it's good and neutral, I should be happy". If you enjoy KEF, then there's no question at all. But OP seems not (?) and on his place I'd check what can big speakers do. That's his idea actually.

 

[NTK]

He said that "it's not that bad" and "...for $1000". Can't argue with that.
"I am happily listening to them now without subs but will be adding the Rythmik L12’s later when I upgrade the subs for my 4722’s" - priorities are set

Listening to the records there's no question which is which. And the empty sounding speaker sounds cleaner, what a surprise.


You should take what makes you enjoy your music instead of eternal cope, switching amps, subs and calibration along with telling yourself "it's good and neutral, I should be happy". If you enjoy KEF, then there's no question at all. But OP seems not (?) and on his place I'd check what can big speakers do. That's his idea actually.

Doesn't matter how you spin it. What you posted earlier didn't hold any water.

My bet is any of these will be lightyears anhead of LS50 in overall feel and scale of sound... oh, my non-native English.
I'd just visit a dealer who has some Revels you want and if he has no KEF in store then just brought mine pair and compared. But jokes off, 3-way floorstander with 2x8", it's not even a comparison. And no sub(s) hooked to 5" monitors will give you that sound.

 

[pablolie]

I fully and totally agree something like the LS50 with subs are complete and total giant killers. And it's not just because of its measured merits as a speaker - it's also because of the greater flexibility in room placement - something like the LS50 (with subs you can drop in the perfect spot) will almost always have a positioning advantage. Floor standers very often have to be tamed in the bass region, and then supplemented with a sub in a different location... and what's the sense of that? You basically neuter the speaker. You paid dearly for that extra bass performance - and then you take it away because it doesn't quite gel with your room?

These days, give me great bookshelves and a sub or two any day of the week. Unless your room is cavernous, they have the advantage in real world environments.

PS: Oh, also means you can pick the amp based on finesse, not just wattage.

 

[Heinrich]

PS: Oh, also means you can pick the amp based on finesse, not just wattage.

Is there finesse with amps? Anyway, the LS50s are a bit weak in the lower midrange. They're just and only 'lifestyle' speakers. For many, maybe the most that's good enough, and I actually only know people from this part of the population, except for two guys, one's me ;-)

In order to use the LS50 beyond doing that particular job they are made for, quite drastic changes are needed to the setup. A sub below 80Hz or so is no way sufficient. Even 250Hz isn't too high to cut off the destructive cone excursions, depending on desired output. Look how distortion detonates below 200Hz. With a crossover at 250Hz that would ask for a steepness of more than 36dB/octave to tame the crunch.

Good for up to quite moderate volumes, not for cinema and such, clearly.

 

[Jim Creek]

A speaker with a bigger soundstage will lose the precise imaging you get with the LS50s. A more focused image comes at the expense of a smaller sound stage. It’s a trade off. We have to find the balance that suits are own personal tastes.

 

[pablolie]

A speaker with a bigger soundstage will lose the precise imaging you get with the LS50s. A more focused image comes at the expense of a smaller sound stage. It’s a trade off. We have to find the balance that suits are own personal tastes.

Which to anyone that attends live performances, it is a certain reality. The bigger the venue, the less real the sound stage you get (unless u sit in the perfect spot). And even in a smaller one you have to get lucky.. .

For myself I have established the exact same is mostly true at home. I adore the 7.5x7.5ft audio love triangle I am involved with these days.

 

[robh36062]

Have you thought about a 3rd LS50 as a center?

Rob

 

[Jim Creek]

Which to anyone that attends live performances, it is a certain reality. The bigger the venue, the less real the sound stage you get (unless u sit in the perfect spot). And even in a smaller one you have to get lucky.. .

For myself I have established the exact same is mostly true at home. I adore the 7.5x7.5ft audio love triangle I am involved with these days.

My triangle is 8’x8’, pretty darn close to yours.

 

[Heinrich]

My comment on the weaknesses of the LS50 was a bit misleading. I dropped in a graph for distortion measured in percentage.

A better perspective is provided by the absolute level of distortion components, see below.




If for example the LS50 is driven to 96dB at 100Hz, the distortion components would be as loud as 76dB. That would be, expressed as a percentage, related to the clean output, roughly 10%. Too much to be useful.

Now assume the LS50 gets attenuated at 100Hz by 10dB using a crossover, supplemented by a perfect subwoofer so that the overall output is kept at 96dB combined. Then the HD components originating in the LS50 would be at 56dB, ...




... and since the sub is perfect, that would be all of distortion. Now the 56dB of HD is related to, LS50 and sub combined, 96dB. 56dB versus 96dB would be as percentage some 1%, Not that nice, but much better than without sub. A good minimum, maybe.

To get there, said 10dB attenuation is to be achieved. It would need a crossover second order at 200Hz. This would not be the usual sub anymore. It is needed in stereo! More so, a standard sub with an x-over at 80Hz wouldn't help at all.

Only as a hint, a fourth order x-over at 200Hz would attenuate by about 20dB at 100Hz, limiting the LS50's contribution to the overall distortion at 100Hz to 0.3% for a level of a mere 96dB. That would be playing it safe. Still the distortion bump at 500Hz isn't addressed, though. Despite the expensive extra two (!) bass/mid speakers, not just a single sub.

In consequence, me thinks, the cute LS50 is better used as intended, as a 'lifestyle' speaker at quite moderate levels. If subjectively bass is missing, add a small sub to just straighten out tonality a bit. The overall output is most probably limited by the LS50 still.

 

[pablolie]

My comment on the weaknesses of the LS50 was a bit misleading. I dropped in a graph for distortion measured in percentage.

A better perspective is provided by the absolute level of distortion components, see below.

View attachment 431971


If for example the LS50 is driven to 96dB at 100Hz, the distortion components would be as loud as 76dB. That would be, expressed as a percentage, related to the clean output, roughly 10%. Too much to be useful.

Now assume the LS50 gets attenuated at 100Hz by 10dB using a crossover, supplemented by a perfect subwoofer so that the overall output is kept at 96dB combined. Then the HD components originating in the LS50 would be at 56dB, ...

View attachment 431972


... and since the sub is perfect, that would be all of distortion. Now the 56dB of HD is related to, LS50 and sub combined, 96dB. 56dB versus 96dB would be as percentage some 1%, Not that nice, but much better than without sub. A good minimum, maybe.

To get there, said 10dB attenuation is to be achieved. It would need a crossover second order at 200Hz. This would not be the usual sub anymore. It is needed in stereo! More so, a standard sub with an x-over at 80Hz wouldn't help at all.

Only as a hint, a fourth order x-over at 200Hz would attenuate by about 20dB at 100Hz, limiting the LS50's contribution to the overall distortion at 100Hz to 0.3% for a level of a mere 96dB. That would be playing it safe. Still the distortion bump at 500Hz isn't addressed, though. Despite the expensive extra two (!) bass/mid speakers, not just a single sub.

In consequence, me thinks, the cute LS50 is better used as intended, as a 'lifestyle' speaker at quite moderate levels. If subjectively bass is missing, add a small sub to just straighten out tonality a bit. The overall output is most probably limited by the LS50 still.

Everything is a compromise.

Listening at 96dB for long, repeated periods certainly is going to impact someone's "lifestyle" since it'll result in hearing loss.

 

[terryforsythe]

Wrong. See mitcho's comparison of the LS50 with subs and JBL 4722.

The JBL 4722 is not the Revel F226Be.

I concur with Heinrich's assessment of the LS50's distortion at higher SPL. Also, take a look at the below response linearity vs SPL Erin measured. Much depends on how loud the OP is listening and the high pass crossover frequency and topology being used on the LS50s.