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Speaker upgrades or keep LS50 Metas with Subs

randomer

Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2021
Messages
11
Likes
4

Current Setup​

  • Room Dimensions: 18' x 17' living room with very high slanted ceilings.
  • Usage: 60% Music / 40% Home Theater.
  • Music Configuration: 2.2 (favorites include vocal-heavy soundtracks, classic rock and acoustic genres).
  • Home Theater Configuration: 6.2.4.
    • Front L/R: KEF LS50 Meta pair.
    • Center: Ascend CMT-340SEv1 (currently disabled, dialog unclear, boomy bass; using a phantom center).
    • Surround L/R: 2 Def Tech Bipolar BP-2X.
    • Heights & Surround Back: 6 Polk OMW3.
    • Subwoofers: 2x Monoprice M-12 V2 THX.
  • Electronics:
    • AVR: Denon x3800H.
    • L/R Amp: Hypex NC252MP (2x250W).
    • Room Correction: Audyssey XT32 + Dirac Live Full Bandwidth.
    • Bass Management: MiniDSP 2x4HD + UMIK-1 + REW.
  • Room Treatment: Thick curtains cover a large window behind the main listening position and there’s a carpet between the mains and the MLP. No other room treatments currently.

The Problem​

Music:
While the LS50 Metas image beautifully, I feel they fall short on soundstage (horizontal, vertical and depth) and overall scale. The listening experience isn’t as immersive or engaging as I’d like and the vocals lack the lush texture and richness I hear in theaters.

Home Theater:
The CMT-340SE center speaker has unclear dialogue due to its MTM configuration, so I’ve resorted to using a phantom center for now. The overall HT experience feels disjointed—speakers don’t seem to vanish into the 3D soundscape but rather act independently, breaking immersion.


Questions​

  1. Are the LS50 Metas appropriate for a room of this size? Would upgrading to floorstanding speakers provide a better sense of scale and soundstage? The Metas can get plenty loud, so SPL isn’t a concern, but would towers offer a noticeable improvement if REW measurements for both are similar (given the subs crossed at 80Hz)?
  2. Could the subwoofer placement be impacting the soundstage? My subs are asymmetrically placed based on REW measurements to optimize response but I wonder if this could be affecting the overall sound cohesion.

Options​

I’m considering the following upgrades/sidegrades?
  1. (Used) LS50 Meta Center (and call it a day?): ~$500.
  2. (Used) Wharfedale Lintons 85th Anniversary pair: ~$600.
  3. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C205: ~$1,700.
  4. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C208: ~$2,200.
  5. (New) Revel F226Be pair+ C426Be: ~$6,600.
  6. (New) Revel F228Be pair+ C426Be: ~$8,620.
  7. (New) Philharmonic HT Tower pair+ HT Center: ~$6,000.

Seeking Advice​

  • Are my observations about the Metas valid or am I overthinking this?
  • If I switch to one of these options, am I likely to see a meaningful improvement or am I approaching the point of diminishing returns? Should I consider anything else?
I’ve done an exhaustive amount of research and feel overwhelmed. Any clarity or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
 
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I doubt you will get better soundstage from the alternatives you listed which are not point sources and also wider radiation so might project wider but more diffuse. The "lush texture and richness" can be possibly achieved with a different FR target, could you post your current DIRAC measurements and how large is your listening distance from the front loudspeakers? If I were you I would probably just change the centre speaker (which we should keep in mind is the most important one) to also one LS50 Meta and rather experiment with loudspeaker placement, EQ targets and room acoustics.
 

Current Setup​

  • Room Dimensions: 18' x 17' living room with very high slanted ceilings.
  • Usage: 60% Music / 40% Home Theater.
  • Music Configuration: 2.2 (favorites include vocal-heavy soundtracks, classic rock and acoustic genres).
  • Home Theater Configuration: 6.2.4.
    • Front L/R: KEF LS50 Meta pair.
    • Center: Ascend CMT-340SEv1 (currently disabled, dialog unclear, boomy bass; using a phantom center).
    • Surround L/R: 2 Def Tech Bipolar BP-2X.
    • Heights & Surround Back: 6 Polk OMW3.
    • Subwoofers: 2x Monoprice M-12 V2 THX.
  • Electronics:
    • AVR: Denon x3800H.
    • L/R Amp: Hypex NC252MP (2x250W).
    • Room Correction: Audyssey XT32 + Dirac Live Full Bandwidth.
    • Bass Management: MiniDSP 2x4HD + UMIK-1 + REW.
  • Room Treatment: Thick curtains cover a large window behind the main listening position and there’s a carpet between the mains and the MLP. No other room treatments currently.

The Problem​

Music:
While the LS50 Metas image beautifully, I feel they fall short on soundstage (horizontal, vertical and depth) and overall scale. The listening experience isn’t as immersive or engaging as I’d like and the vocals lack the lush texture and richness I hear in theaters.

Home Theater:
The CMT-340SE center speaker has unclear dialogue due to its MTM configuration, so I’ve resorted to using a phantom center for now. The overall HT experience feels disjointed—speakers don’t seem to vanish into the 3D soundscape but rather act independently, breaking immersion.


Questions​

  1. Are the LS50 Metas appropriate for a room of this size? Would upgrading to floorstanding speakers provide a better sense of scale and soundstage? The Metas can get plenty loud, so SPL isn’t a concern, but would towers offer a noticeable improvement if REW measurements for both are similar (given the subs crossed at 80Hz)?
  2. Could the subwoofer placement be impacting the soundstage? My subs are asymmetrically placed based on REW measurements to optimize response but I wonder if this could be affecting the overall sound cohesion.

Options​

I’m considering the following upgrades/sidegrades?
  1. (Used) LS50 Meta Center (and call it a day?): ~$500.
  2. (Used) Wharfedale Lintons 85th Anniversary pair: ~$600.
  3. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C205: ~$1,700.
  4. (Used) Revel F206 pair+ C208: ~$2,200.
  5. (New) Revel F226Be pair+ C426Be: ~$6,600.
  6. (New) Revel F228Be pair+ C426Be: ~$8,620.
  7. (New) Philharmonic HT Tower pair+ HT Center: ~$6,000.

Seeking Advice​

  • Are my observations about the Metas valid or am I overthinking this?
  • If I switch to one of these options, am I likely to see a meaningful improvement or am I approaching the point of diminishing returns? Should I consider anything else?
I’ve done an exhaustive amount of research and feel overwhelmed. Any clarity or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
My impression is that you've done everything right regarding speakers, amps, subs and eq. If I interpret your situation correctly and correlate it to my own, you would benefit not overthinking possible causes but just experiment and rule out.

My startpoint would be that from my experience the ls50 image great, sound very neutral in open space and imo are somewhat bass shy. (Smallish drivers combined with small enclosure may not be enough for these speakers to shine in a relatively large space. And the ls50 have good bass until 100 hertz and then sloping down. Plus a small cabinet. That doesn't help either.)

What I would do is some solid out of the box experiments to rule out what cannot be the cause:

First I would do is in eq to create a more downward slope and treble roll off. My speakers have that naturally and sound lush and impressive while never fatiguing. Your speakers plus subs should be able to create that experience. See if you like it. And continue with experiment 2.

Second is dynamic eq: iirc this feature is available in denon avrs. It gives more bass at lower levels to compensate for our ears lesser sensitivity at these frequencies. Best feature ever imo.

Third experiment would be to loan some revels/elac dbr 62 that are small monitors and revels with larger volume that are quite easy to drive with your amp. The dbr has a bass emphesis at 100 hz and slopes down less in bass than the ls50. Should make integrating with subs easier. Larger drivers in a big tower speaker move more air easily with their larger drivers, which is something I can hear and appreciate. You might too.

Btw: ime great imagining is the core strength of the ls50. If it does not do soundstage width well you might benefit by not pointing the speakers toward your ears but about 2 feet away from your ears. Ie pointing straight at the wall when in an equilateral traingle. Erin has a great video about that. Also having side walls relatively close (3 to 6 feet) could cause extra reflections giving the impression of a bigger soundstage. Another possibility could be that your seat/couch is straight against a wall which messes up the direct sound.
 
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Questions​

  1. Are the LS50 Metas appropriate for a room of this size? Would upgrading to floorstanding speakers provide a better sense of scale and soundstage? The Metas can get plenty loud, so SPL isn’t a concern, but would towers offer a noticeable improvement if REW measurements for both are similar (given the subs crossed at 80Hz)?
  2. Could the subwoofer placement be impacting the soundstage? My subs are asymmetrically placed based on REW measurements to optimize response but I wonder if this could be affecting the overall sound cohesion.


My best direct answers, educated guesses:​

1) Probably no to the ls50; yes to floorstanders regarding scale and soundstage. You loose some imaging focus. That is the trade-off. I'm by no means an expert on revel speakers, but judging by their size and reviews I suspect the F206 to be the sweat spot within the range.
2) I think not. It's easy to check though: shut the subs down and play music only through the ls50.

Regarding the center speaker I would expect the ls50 to shine in this spot. I would use it for this application.
 
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1- A great upgrade could be r3 meta and r3 meta center
 
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