Single full range drivers

[GelbeMusik]

...but these vifa tc9/tg9 are outstanding.

Me too. Great value. I get even much lower H2 distortion. Only that the driver cannot be used wide range. The directivity sets in quite rapidly, and the soundstage become odd. Sigh!

 

[GXAlan]

Although it uses a 15" dual-concentric driver and not a whizzer-cone single driver, I'm still waiting for someone to send Amir a 304 pound Tannoy Westminster Royal to hoist up onto his Klippel testing rig.

View attachment 60919

I have heard one of those in person and it does sound great.

I have sent @amirm a Made in UK speaker with a full range whizzer cone driver. Much smaller though.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I've found one surviving measurement of the TC9. This is at 90dB/1m, mounted in a 1L enclosure and attached to a small CD horn (it's a long story), EQ'd flat and high-pass filtered 24dB/octave at 100Hz.

IIRC the HD above 800Hz was about 0.3% without the horn (it was down to about 0.1% with the horn as you can see).

PS the ripples in the amplitude response below 1kHz are due to reflections, as it's an ungated indoor measurement, albeit taken 2m from the nearest reflective surface.

 

[dwkdnvr]

I did a desktop system with the 10F/8414 and the Seas L16RN-SL (driver used in the Lx Mini), and IMHO it worked pretty well. It was mostly a design exercise with the 10F mounted in a pair of Ikea Blanda bamboo bowls glued together to make a spherical enclosure. Fun project, but ultimately a bit of a pain given that it was a DSP xover and I kept putzing with the signal chain. The R3s are better

 

[Xulonn]

10F mounted in a pair of Ikea Blanda bamboo bowls glued together to make a spherical enclosure.

How could anyone not "Like" that idea!

 

[Ilkless]

Looks quite good, but has anyone compared this directly to Vifa/Tymphany's TC9FD18-08?

I didn't save the measurements I took of the TC9 a couple of years back, but my recollection is that it measured better than the 8424 (flatter response, wider directivity, lower low-midrange distortion).

EDIT: actually I have a bunch of them still back home, leftover from an old project. When I get there I can take/post some measurements.

As a DIY speaker guy I'm biased against cheaper drivers, since I feel that if you're going to the trouble of making a nice cabinet you should spend some money on the drivers too...but these vifa tc9/tg9 are outstanding.

Not directly comparable, but 0-15-30-45 off-axis of the SS 8414 (on a 5" x 10" baffle) and distortion at 94dBSPL/1m in free air from AudioXpress:

Seems slightly more controlled than the Vifa but more directive.

 

[Ilkless]

I did a desktop system with the 10F/8414 and the Seas L16RN-SL (driver used in the Lx Mini), and IMHO it worked pretty well. It was mostly a design exercise with the 10F mounted in a pair of Ikea Blanda bamboo bowls glued together to make a spherical enclosure. Fun project, but ultimately a bit of a pain given that it was a DSP xover and I kept putzing with the signal chain. The R3s are better

How could anyone not "Like" that idea!

I wish more implementations of good widebanders existed in the place of ultra-cheap 2-ways with crummy drivers and next-to-nothing crossovers for desktops. No need to worry about lobing, directivity mismatch and so on.

 

[MattHooper]

Good statement!
Some questions like this i had on my mind.
Than i looked this video.

Many people like this speakers for there midrange? How come?
Never listend them, but how come that many like this little things that do so many wrong?

It depends on what type of asnwer will satisfy you. If you want a scientifically rigorous answer, I don't think that will be forthcoming (not sure if double blind testing has been done for the LS3/5 speakers).

But if you want to know why owners of those speakers like them so much, I can give my anecdotal report, as I own the Spendor version of the 3/5s.

For my 2 channel music listening, I've owned many speakers (and still own 6 different "high end" speakers), and every time I put the little Spendors in my system I'm utterly beguiled. They have a wonderful combination of tonal warmth with clarity, and they sound smooth, just enough to take the edge off many recordings. (Smooth but not "dark" and rolled off - they sound both smooth but super "open" and sparkly). They soundstage like demons, and voices sound more "natural" and human to my ear than through most speakers. Tonally they seem to reproduce acoustic sounds convincingly to my ears. So when I listen to an acoustic guitar track, or a recording of my own acoustic guitar through the 3/5s, it sounds "right." There's that balance of warmth like there's a guitar body, and the "golden sparkle" of the upper strings, much like I hear in real guitars. I can play my guitar right after listening to my recording of that guitar through the spendors and there isn't a big disconnect, it's "yeah, that's basically right."
And when a speaker can do that, for me it's one of my greatest joys in audio.

Even more subjectively, and hard to describe, there is something so "balanced" in their presentation that it's like the "mix" of music tracks seem to "make sense," feel balanced. Even when I put them in place of large floor standing speakers the little 3/5s are hard to pull back out of my 2 channel system.

People around here don't tend to go in for such subjective descriptions, but...since you asked why some people like those speakers and I own a pair...well...there's why

 

[mhardy6647]

The single-driver speakers I owned more than a decade ago were my most beautiful pair to date, matte graphite paper cone and camel-toned leather surrounds on a piano gloss cabinet... Last pair I had, lesson learned.

I found this FR plot online:

Diatones (Mitsubishi). Looks like a P610? Yeah, they are (were) actually very sweet little drivers. They went away (and prices skyrocketed) just about the time I was getting interested in such things.
There are all kinds of interesting current production Asian 'fullrange' drivers that are "inspired by" the Diatones (whatever that means -- like those Chinese "Marantz 7" preamp "clones" that have, as best I can tell, absolutely nothing in common with the actual Marantz 7) -- they look nice, at any rate.

Things like this... https://www.lii-audio.com/product/n...nge-crystal-cone-high-end-crystal-10-in-pair/

 

[tomtoo]

It depends on what type of asnwer will satisfy you. If you want a scientifically rigorous answer, I don't think that will be forthcoming (not sure if double blind testing has been done for the LS3/5 speakers).

But if you want to know why owners of those speakers like them so much, I can give my anecdotal report, as I own the Spendor version of the 3/5s.

For my 2 channel music listening, I've owned many speakers (and still own 6 different "high end" speakers), and every time I put the little Spendors in my system I'm utterly beguiled. They have a wonderful combination of tonal warmth with clarity, and they sound smooth, just enough to take the edge off many recordings. (Smooth but not "dark" and rolled off - they sound both smooth but super "open" and sparkly). They soundstage like demons, and voices sound more "natural" and human to my ear than through most speakers. Tonally they seem to reproduce acoustic sounds convincingly to my ears. So when I listen to an acoustic guitar track, or a recording of my own acoustic guitar through the 3/5s, it sounds "right." There's that balance of warmth like there's a guitar body, and the "golden sparkle" of the upper strings, much like I hear in real guitars. I can play my guitar right after listening to my recording of that guitar through the spendors and there isn't a big disconnect, it's "yeah, that's basically right."
And when a speaker can do that, for me it's one of my greatest joys in audio.

Even more subjectively, and hard to describe, there is something so "balanced" in their presentation that it's like the "mix" of music tracks seem to "make sense," feel balanced. Even when I put them in place of large floor standing speakers the little 3/5s are hard to pull back out of my 2 channel system.

People around here don't tend to go in for such subjective descriptions, but...since you asked why some people like those speakers and I own a pair...well...there's why

Thanks! I loved that. Thats why i asked, a little tiny 2-way speaker but it get's loved.

 

[egellings]

Maybe the full ranger is most popular among the SET (Single Ended Triode) users due to usually high sensitivity and ease of driving for these crossover-less drivers.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Maybe the full ranger is most popular among the SET (Single Ended Triode) users due to usually high sensitivity and ease of driving for these crossover-less drivers.

Don't think so. If the mindset which prefers SET applies to loudspeakers too, it's the appeal of less is more. As complicated that "less" may ever become. It even adds to the "more" me thinks. These guys want to experience the machine, including the feel to be betrayed by their senses.

I never auditioned a full range driver that came close to be at least acceptable. Only occasionally, like when driving in the car, even through a wideband single driver some music can make me just stop and listen. But I argue it's not due to the virtues of the speaker.

 

[tuga]

Maybe the full ranger is most popular among the SET (Single Ended Triode) users due to usually high sensitivity and ease of driving for these crossover-less drivers.

I think that some audiophiles just fall in love with a particular topology, not because of its performance potential but for other irrational, obscure reasons. Single-driver speakers, NOS DACs, op-amp and tripath amplifications, zero negative feedback, etc.

 

[Vapor9]

Dr. Bose's company (rather famously) did that.

View attachment 64323

Except these never sounded that good.

 

[Ilkless]

Don't think so. If the mindset which prefers SET applies to loudspeakers too, it's the appeal of less is more. As complicated that "less" may ever become. It even adds to the "more" me thinks. These guys want to experience the machine, including the feel to be betrayed by their senses.

I never auditioned a full range driver that came close to be at least acceptable. Only occasionally, like when driving in the car, even through a wideband single driver some music can make me just stop and listen. But I argue it's not due to the virtues of the speaker.

I heard the first generation of the much lauded Voxativs. An ultra-high-end, modern take on Lowthers, they said. Sound was a mess. A jumbled soundscape with next to no separation on complex recordings.

 

[Ilkless]

Not directly comparable, but 0-15-30-45 off-axis of the SS 8414 (on a 5" x 10" baffle) and distortion at 94dBSPL/1m in free air from AudioXpress:

Seems slightly more controlled than the Vifa but more directive.

Audioxpress also measured the 2" Scanspeak (0-15-30-45 off-axis in 4" x 9" baffle) + distortion in free air at 94dBSPL (ie. demanding, worst-case conditions)):

Wider dispersion, of course, but I can't help but think the smoothly-declining response trend in the 4" driver is preferable. The 2" has that odd 10kHz null, but I can't help but imagine it in a CBT array. Some equalisation, and hopefully optimising the baffle might make up for the null.

 

[andreasmaaan]

The 2" has that odd 10kHz null, but I can't help but imagine it in a CBT array. Some equalisation, and hopefully optimising the baffle might make up for the null.

I think that's simply because the test enclosure has a sharply-terminated baffle and the 2" driver is wider-directivity at 10kHz and therefore interacts with it more.

PS which driver is this BTW?

 

[Ilkless]

I think that's simply because the test enclosure has a sharply-terminated baffle and the 2" driver is wider-directivity at 10kHz and therefore interacts with it more.

PS which driver is this BTW?

Scanspeak 5F/8422T01

Troels also measured it off-axis in a desktop open baffle implementation.

Also shows a bit wider directivity than the 4" but lumpier top octave, and the same 10kHz null. But yes, this is in a frequency range where baffle geometry really matters and the interactions with the baffle may help to balance it. But at 69USD/piece to the DIYer... no wonder no one is looking at it for line arrays even though I agree with Vance Dickason that it is well-designed for the form factor.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Also shows a bit wider directivity than the 4" but lumpier top octave, and the same 10kHz null.

That's a good point. It's clearly independent of the baffle in this case.

distortion in free air at 94dBSPL (ie. demanding, worst-case conditions)):

Although I agree that free space is generally the most demanding condition under which a distortion measurement can be performed, in the case of Voice Coil Test Bench, their measurement is performed such that the voltage is constant, i.e. the "baffle" step is not compensated by EQ. The result is generally that the SPL of the driver is lower than 94dB below the frequency at which the driver/frame itself stops supporting the output.

This can be easily verified because the voltage at which the measurement is taken is always stated.

In the case of this 2" scanspeak, the distortion measurement was performed at 7.2V. The driver's voltage sensitivity is 80dB.

Let Lv = the SPL gain relative to 80dB.

Lv = 20(log10(7.2/2.83)
≈ 20(log10(2.54)
≈ 8.1dB

This would imply the driver was playing at a level equivalent to 88.1dB on an infinite baffle or 82.1dB in free space.

I find doing this calculation particularly useful when assessing Voice Coil distortion plots, as the level is calibrated to 94dB using a noise stimulus, which can give wildly different results depending on the degree of deviation in the amplitude response of the driver.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Scanspeak 5F/8422T01
Troels also measured it off-axis in a desktop open baffle implementation.

Such implementations obscure the main caveat. By increasing directivity, using a narrow baffle, or even an open baffle, the sudden dropp in dispersion towards 10k looks less severe. I'm personally adapted to a CD horn for mid/high and still feel a bit, actually, uncomfortable with the beamy presentation by the wideband. It sounds too muffled in the reverberation field.

Sure, with a less proficient driver it is just a chaotic mess, which, for some strange reason renders the problem more tolerable