Schiit Vidar Amplifier Review

[tvrgeek]

Almost convinced. I upgraded from my own MOSFET design that was getting quite old to a Parasound 2125 which I am not at all happy with. I would call it "edgy" My Asgard works fine, unlike the Toping and SMSL I tried based on this site testing, so maybe a Vidar to match?

DC offset on the mains and transformers are a bad combination no matter the brand. A solid state relay anywhere on the same phase can cause an amp to hum. I know this from experience. Should we expect an amp maker to protect us from this? Yes but only at a price point that can support it. Yes, some electronics have issues that creep in after time. Again, at what price point can you expect a unit to be burned in? What is the bottom of the bathtub curve? 1 Hour? 100? We are talking a $700 amp that sounds better than many I can think of for 3 or 4 times the price.

Schiit and JDS are my new favorite companies. March seems to be trying to hit the same market in amps, but as class D, I am not going to risk it.
Atoll, SimAudio, and Hegel are rapidly rising in my esteem. Unfortunately on a whole other price platform!

Specs are fine, but we still don't really know what to measure. That was sort of proved back with the Hafler null test. I can guarantee you on a 120, modifying the input CCS and change to Miller Compensation made a HUGE audible difference. There are still unresolved dynamic questions and many very difficult to drive speakers out there. If it were only specs, then a Doug Self "Blameless" would be the best amp out there. ( Think Cambridge. Great specs, but totally lifeless to listen to.) Or many of the new class D, which so far have left me cold. I have been told the Lyndorf would change my mind. The testing herein is a tremendous help to narrow down the choices, but the end-all is still your ears. Not mine, not Amirm's

Now, if you are lucky enough to have poor hearing* or just don't care, by all means, Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, and so on. Lots of features, cheap prices, reliable. Drive your very reliable Corolla with all the steering feedback of a video game. Some of us it is only about the music for serious listening. Very small differences. Probably 80% of the amps I have listened to , Julian Bream's bass strings sound metallic. Why I don't know, but I know what I hear. Joni Mitchel can destroy a less than excellent tweeter. Harry James trumpet can send my wife running from the room, but live we can sit 10 feet from the stage.

*Generations of Who concerts stoned, disco clubs, and now ear buds, we have three generations almost deaf!

 

[Bear123]

Compare the Denon AVR-X3500H to the Schiit Vidar in a top view. Then look at the specs. The Schiit Vidar is a Corvette and the Denon is a economy car with power windows and lane sense etc etc. There's simply no comparing the two units. They are apples and oranges and the Schiit is a vastly superior product in regards to construction integrity, amplifier design and output.

If the design were so vastly superior, why does the Denon have objectively higher fidelity while basically matching in terms of power output? I'm not concerned about advertised specs or photos…we have actual numbers from Amir's bench tests.

I agree there is no comparing the two units….one will provide much higher fidelity due to the inclusion of room correction for both speakers and subs, bass management, 7 channels instead of 2, surround decoding, DEQ, etc etc etc, while offering about the same power and better SINAD.

I personally would be looking for higher fidelity and a lot more power to justify spending money on a dedicated external amp.

One point I will concede is that the Schiit could end up lasting longer if it indeed is built with higher quality parts, and due to the simplicity of the unit.

 

[Doodski]

If the design were so vastly superior, why does the Denon have objectively higher fidelity while basically matching in terms of power output? I'm not concerned about advertised specs or photos…we have actual numbers from Amir's bench tests.

I agree there is no comparing the two units….one will provide much higher fidelity due to the inclusion of room correction for both speakers and subs, bass management, 7 channels instead of 2, surround decoding, DEQ, etc etc etc, while offering about the same power and better SINAD.

I personally would be looking for higher fidelity and a lot more power to justify spending money on a dedicated external amp.

One point I will concede is that the Schiit could end up lasting longer if it indeed is built with higher quality parts, and due to the simplicity of the unit.

The Denon is not 4 Ω rated, limits power output to 35w/ch save itself and shuts down when run hard. As per sound quality if surround sound is for you then the Denon is the one to buy.

 

[tvrgeek]

If the design were so vastly superior, why does the Denon have objectively higher fidelity while basically matching in terms of power output? I'm not concerned about advertised specs or photos…we have actual numbers from Amir's bench tests.

I agree there is no comparing the two units….one will provide much higher fidelity due to the inclusion of room correction for both speakers and subs, bass management, 7 channels instead of 2, surround decoding, DEQ, etc etc etc, while offering about the same power and better SINAD.

I personally would be looking for higher fidelity and a lot more power to justify spending money on a dedicated external amp.

One point I will concede is that the Schiit could end up lasting longer if it indeed is built with higher quality parts, and due to the simplicity of the unit.

You have explained why there is more than one amplifier in the market. Why one is right for you, and another for me.
We have a very different definition of fidelity.
I have no use for 7 channels in a stereo system
I have no use for tone controls, let alone any DSP. I "equalized" my speakers by tuning the crossovers and the room.
I have no use for more than about 60 W. With my speakers, 40W is enough to damage my hearing. 60 Watts exceeds X-Max of my woofers.
I have no use for remote controls, video support, or even any complex source switching.
My definition of high fidelity is the subtle but audible to me and even more to my wife, differences in sound. There are things we can hear we do not currently have an easy way to measure. The extensive tests herein provide that valuable sorting between the junk and things worth considering. One still needs to decide if the features and performance matches your needs. Hint: Non linear distortion is very difficult to measure and not fully understood how we perceive different aspects. Our brain plays a roll and what gives you clues the music is "right" may not be the same as me. Second hint: Transistors are not very linear.

That said, my guest room I use as a HT, I run a 5.1 with an Anthem AVR. I use the DSP for eq, DSP for video processing, remote control etc. The room will not support a 9.2 system. Different use, different choice in equipment.

I am not denigrating Denon. I have never been let down by them for their intended use. (Can't say that for Sony, HK, or Pioneer)

So, a Denon AVR is the right product for you. The Schiit may be the right product for me to replace my Parasound 2125 as it may sound good enough to me and I can afford it. I would rather have an Atoll or Hegel, but I can't justify the price.

I agree, an integrated unit can be better overall. Sharing a cabinet, power, and having control between the stages can give better results for less money. If I could justify the money, I would be buying one rather than an amp. That is if all sections are of equal quality. Some companies do digital well, some analog. Not every one does both. I am struggling with this choice as I don't spend as much time doing serious music listening as I once did.

My only criticism about the Denon, and for that mater most of the integrated AVR units out there, is the inability to drive low impedance or "difficult" loads. This is a design choice and to do so is actually expensive. It is only a problem if your speakers are difficult. Many are. Many in the "popular" price range, so that brings up suitability for intended use questions. Low impedance loads means higher current, which means more output transistors and bigger power supply, which means more cost. Additionally, the impedance can effect the amplifier compensation causing negative feedback to become positive, and the amp blows up. Again, this means additional cost to prevent. As I have designed and built both amplifiers and speakers, I understand the costs.

My last point is the speakers. All too often too mush import is placed n the electronics and not on the speakers. I have seen Krells running speakers K-Mart wouldn't even sell. The speakers are the hardest part. In retail, every pair of speakers should cost twice what your electronics do, or the next best dollar spent would still be on speakers. You should pay as much attention to the room management as you do electronics. Reflections less than two feet trash the imaging for instance.

 

[Bear123]

The Denon is not 4 Ω rated, limits power output to 35w/ch save itself and shuts down when run hard. As per sound quality if surround sound is for you then the Denon is the one to buy.
View attachment 163716

Here is the Denon's actual 4 ohm performance as measured by ASR and Audioholics. Audioholics measured the 2 year older 3300 version. You are also correct that if the switch is flipped into 4 ohm mode for the Denon, it drastically reduces available power. So the advice is to leave it in 8 ohm mode and let it rip.

Anecdotally, I've never had my 3300 shutdown even at reference level i.e. far louder than I would ever normally listen, which is also far louder than most users listen from what I've read on forums over the years. Although I haven't looked for the occurence specifically, I haven't heard reports of Denon owners complaining about shutdowns. Seems like a non issue.

 

[Doodski]

So the advice is to leave it in 8 ohm mode and let it rip.

Fine for surround sound movies and music but nothing too too demanding with the 4Ω load. I provided Denon warranty service for some years and found the company to be very good about repairs in-warranty if it is and has a breakdown. If it does fry a transistor or more they are available fairly easily. Denon does not use proprietary output transistors. Another thing to be aware of is that the mains transformer can have a thermal fuse inside. In some countries it is mandatory like Canada and maybe the USA now too. If that fuse opens then the transformer is junk. By peeling back the outer copper shield one would find the small thermal fuse (It's pretty obvious what it is when finding it) and it can be jumpered to make the unit operational although that is for test purposes only. So go easy on it @4Ω.

 

[Bear123]

Fine for surround sound movies and music but nothing too too demanding with the 4Ω load. I provided Denon warranty service for some years and found the company to be very good about repairs in-warranty if it is and has a breakdown. If it does fry a transistor or more they are available fairly easily. Denon does not use proprietary output transistors. Another thing to be aware of is that the mains transformer can have a thermal fuse inside. In some countries it is mandatory like Canada and maybe the USA now too. If that fuse opens then the transformer is junk. By peeling back the outer copper shield one would find the small thermal fuse (It's pretty obvious what it is when finding it) and it can be jumpered to make the unit operational although that is for test purposes only. So go easy on it @4Ω.

The load issue doesn't seem black and white. I am currently using Revel F36 mains and Infinity RC263 center channel. The F36 are "rated" at 6 ohm but their little brothers the F35 dip to 4 ohms and below in a couple of places. Most "8 ohm" speakers seem to dip quite low in places. The RC263 has a minimum impedance dip down to 4 ohms and I've done max output compression test sweeps on that speaker without issue. These aren't long duration….maybe a 5-6 second sweep but likely still a lot more demanding than normal content. I fully agree that driving a true 4 ohm load is more difficult and likely results in more heat and strain….I'm also guessing that 4 ohm rated speakers would dip well below 4 ohms in places.

For me personally, the Denon seems to provide far more power than I need in regular use and has held up fine even under flat out demo sessions up to the output limits of my speakers. If I *needed* an external amp, I'd lean towards one with more power than my AVR already has, such as an NC500 or 502 implementation, or perhaps Monoliths 200/300 watt 3/5/7 channel amps, which I'd be curious to see tested here.

Although value is different for everyone, more than I paid for my entire AVR to get the same power and only 2 channels doesn't seem great. Even if I were to build a 2 channel only system, I'd choose the AVR since it also includes everything needed for high fidelity playback. In fact, I repurposed my old AVR for music in my workout room…..the on board eq isn't very good but it does have bass management which makes a big difference.

 

[Doodski]

For me personally, the Denon seems to provide far more power than I need in regular use

I'm with you on that one especially when running multiple speakers in surround one can get it loud at lower power levels at each speaker.

Although value is different for everyone, more than I paid for my entire AVR to get the same power and only 2 channels doesn't seem great.

Yes, the features value in a surround sound receiver is high and comparatively for some having more power isn't required or the budget isn't there. I've sold ~truck loads of Yamaha stereo receivers and surround sound receivers because nothing else at the time could compete with a Yamaha surround sound receiver for value. So I understand why you are looking for bang for your buck in one unit.

on board eq isn't very good

A basic EQ is better than no EQ any day. I am a proponent of EQ/PEQ use as compared to a purist that wants as little in the signal path as possible and shuns EQ/PEQ use. I am also a proponent of surround sound for music if it is done well.

 

[Bear123]

I'm with you on that one especially when running multiple speakers in surround one can get it loud at lower power levels at each speaker.


Yes, the features value in a surround sound receiver is high and comparatively for some having more power isn't required or the budget isn't there. I've sold ~truck loads of Yamaha stereo receivers and surround sound receivers because nothing else at the time could compete with a Yamaha surround sound receiver for value. So I understand why you are looking for bang for your buck in one unit.


A basic EQ is better than no EQ any day. I am a proponent of EQ/PEQ use as compared to a purist that wants as little in the signal path as possible and shuns EQ/PEQ use. I am also a proponent of surround sound for music if it is done well.

I found the Yamaha's auto room correction does very little to correct in room frequency response at any frequency, including and especially the most problematic lower frequencies below Schroeder. However, in my workout room, I don't really have a listening position per se, which I think would make even using the Yamaha's manual eq of questionable benefit. Add to the fact that my standards aren't all that high for music while picking things up and putting them down. The Infinity bookshelves and JBL550P sub, set up by ear, are more than adequate for this use. If I had a couch or seating area, I'd probably fire up REW and do some manual eq if nothing else.

I also agree that the room does orders of magnitude more damage to the "purity of the signal path" than imaginary differences in cables, amps, DAC's, DSP, etc, and that eq helps *restore* the purity or fidelity of the signal rather than degrades it.

 

[Doodski]

I also agree that the room does orders of magnitude more damage to the "purity of the signal path" than imaginary differences in cables, amps, DAC's, DSP, etc, and that eq helps *restore* the purity or fidelity of the signal rather than degrades it.

I think all speakers don't usually sound exactly like the real thing does anyway and they all sound different so EQ/PEQ on and get some fun happening instead of being a stick in the mud. Here's my EQ setting. That shows I am not delusional about my sound and the so called purity of a straight wire type design with no EQ/PEQ.

 

[H-713]

I'm sure it got mentioned somewhere in the 12 pages of this thread, but Schiit could very easily have gotten THD+N of 0.001 % across most of the audible band if they used a different topology. This is a CFA (current feedback amplifier), which is why the -3dB frequency is 150 kHz. I'm actually surprised it isn't higher. This would be a really interesting amplifier to measure the slew rate of, since it's probably upwards of 100 V/us. Winfield Hill posted a CFA he designed on DiyAudio a while back, with slew rates in the 1 kV/us range. Fun stuff.

The impression I get from Schiit is that it's a bunch of nerds who like to play with different topologies, so the fact that they sell a CFA doesn't surprise me at all.

 

[Ludovic Alexandre]

CFA, like the quad stuff ? (405, ...)

 

[tvrgeek]

One can use massive feedback or different topology, like the Self Blameless*, and get very low THD numbers. But it may sound like garbage. I have built a few amps and played with a few tings. Only chasing numbers is not how to build an amp.

Excessive bandwidth can cause many problems, like difficult to maintain stability with all loads. Again, chasing a number like the bandwidth may be counter-productive. Good engineers pay attention to both numbers and their ears.

I was about to remind folks of the Quad as well.

* Been there, done that. Dull and lifeless. Kind of like early Cambridge amps. Better to spend the money addressing Beta droop and thermal drift of the bias. Toss in a better IPS and VAS CCS.

 

[tvrgeek]

I think all speakers don't usually sound exactly like the real thing does anyway and they all sound different so EQ/PEQ on and get some fun happening instead of being a stick in the mud. Here's my EQ setting. That shows I am not delusional about my sound and the so called purity of a straight wire type design with no EQ/PEQ.
View attachment 163837

I too run APO/Peace. I run many more bands. Also, you have more gain in several bands than original pre-amp so you are running the risk of clipping. I only cut and my maximum band cut is only 4 . I can't imagine what you are trying to equalize that takes a gain of 30.

You do know you can also adjust Q which may make it easier. I use the pink noise generator in True RTA for real-time watching when making initial adjustments, then use MLS for further hints. That gets me close and lets me set the highest level. Then I have several recordings I know well I tweak it with.

 

[David Harper]

If the design were so vastly superior, why does the Denon have objectively higher fidelity while basically matching in terms of power output? I'm not concerned about advertised specs or photos…we have actual numbers from Amir's bench tests.

I agree there is no comparing the two units….one will provide much higher fidelity due to the inclusion of room correction for both speakers and subs, bass management, 7 channels instead of 2, surround decoding, DEQ, etc etc etc, while offering about the same power and better SINAD.

I personally would be looking for higher fidelity and a lot more power to justify spending money on a dedicated external amp.

One point I will concede is that the Schiit could end up lasting longer if it indeed is built with higher quality parts, and due to the simplicity of the unit.

The Denon features you mention do not constitute "higher fidelity". They constitute unnecessary (in my opinion) over-processing of the signal which can only result in lower fidelity. Also were the Denon to attempt to deliver as much power into 4ohms as the Vidar does it would soon start to smoke and your room would be permeated with that awful electrical fire smell.

 

[tvrgeek]

The Vidar is not intended as an HT amp. It is for music where the subtleties of the music matter. If you have an HT, buy the Denon , Anthem or NAD. Stereo music, well that is where a separate amp is sometimes desirable. Again, the great objective numbers from this forum are a starting place. You then decide your use, narrow it down, and then use your ears in your room how you would use it on your speakers. I bet they are different from mine. Personally, I think Audessy sounds terrible. If you think the SINAD value is the end all, fine. Be happy. Most of use know it is a starting point. Valuable, but a starting point. If you want a 5, 7 or more amp, look at Outlaw, ATI, Anthem, and Monoprice. HT amps.

Power ratings of +/-100% are barely noticeable. ( 3 dB) Do not think a 100 or 200W amp is any different. My 60W DIY MOSFET amp is clearly more dynamic than my 125W Parasound. My 40W Creek is almost enough.

I am still waffling. I went back and looked at the notes when I built my amp, Spice said .003 THD+N @ rated, but gee, I only got .004. All that tells me is that I was not masking issues with 1% second harmonic " musical" distortion. But that my 2125 really does suck. Guess my best path is to see who has the least restrictive return postage policy and start trying the options. I will mention, the last three high end stores I went to said I should just rebuild my old amp as they had nothing under 5K that could touch it. I don't need another project!


Oh, Quad called their amp "current dumping". Not sure how that compares with "current feedback". I would need to see the Schiit schematic. The Quad is available.

 

[tvrgeek]

As far as APO, I managed to do some testing, though I am not real sure of the validity, but it was suggesting it was in the .001% THD range provided you set your gains correctly and don't try to add 30 dB without the headroom. You must reduce the input by as much as your maximum boost. Most DAC makers suggest setting your host digital gain just a hair under max, though no explanation why. Seems like it would be dropping a bit. I only cut so I do not run out of range. I did test. If any band boost exceeds the preamp cut, distortion does skyrocket on louder passage's. No surprise. I have no plans on giving up my analog volume control!

 

[David Harper]

"power ratings of +/- 100% are barely noticable" yes, I agree completely. But my reason for getting the Vidar wasn't more volume.
My speakers are maggies which are very power hungry and draw a lot of current. At certain frequencies their impedance drops to 2.6 ohms. I tried an AVR which was rated at 110wpc into 8 ohms. Like the Denon it's 4 ohm rating was unclear and somewhat misleading. Everytime I tried to drive the maggies with it it went into thermal or current overload and shut down. Even at medium volumes. The Vidar doesn't do this.

 

[tvrgeek]

"power ratings of +/- 100% are barely noticable" yes, I agree completely. But my reason for getting the Vidar wasn't more volume.
My speakers are maggies which are very power hungry and draw a lot of current. At certain frequencies their impedance drops to 2.6 ohms. I tried an AVR which was rated at 110wpc into 8 ohms. Like the Denon it's 4 ohm rating was unclear and somewhat misleading. Everytime I tried to drive the maggies with it it went into thermal or current overload and shut down. Even at medium volumes. The Vidar doesn't do this.

A pretty good endorsement. Maggies can upset a lot of amps. The old Apogee was even worse. Thinking about a MUTO M4 ad a DAC so I can do the filtering and crossover in the host, so would not need external analog filtering in front of the amp.

 

[LTig]

"power ratings of +/- 100% are barely noticable" yes, I agree completely.

Nope. I agree with +100% but -100% is silence - only deaf people (and I really mean deaf) won't note a difference.