Rogers LS3/5a (BBC) Speaker Review

[HarmonicTHD]

Just had some time to burn and ventured to Roger´s website:

Rogers LS3/5A classic speakers — Rogers

Rogers International UK Ltd are pleased to announce the release of the Reborn LS3/5A Classic 15 Ohm speaker. Having previously manufactured over 50,000 pairs of LS3/5A’s, Rogers are now once again manufacturing this landmark speaker in the UK.

www.rogers-hifi.uk

While the company piggybacks on the BBC reputation they dont make any direct claims on sound. H o w e v e r... if you scroll down, they are happy to list all kinds of reviews such as this, which emphasizes the fantastic sound in a domestic "hifi listening" environment.... so far to the argument, that people nowadays would know, where and how to use this speaker.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a93e615af209610a9b4b21d/t/601013639a32f45a78416e3e/1611666279507/STRP_200400_LISTENING_ROGERS.pdf

When reading (just skip through it, it is hard to stomach - so be warned) one doesnt even recognize, that this is the same speaker as reviewed here.

Glad we have the facts.

 

[Karl-Heinz Fink]

Philips had a speaker factory from 1970 to 2007 in Dendermonde (Hoogeveld quarter), when it was sold with the Leuven Amp factory (where Bruno Putseys from Hypex and Purifi a.o. worked before) to D&M Holding (Denon, Marantz) who sold it again to Value Enhancement (an investment funds) in 2016 as an independent company called Premium Audio Solutions.

Its an OEM car audio builder now for brands like Loewe, B&O en B&W and car companies like the Volkswagen group (Audi, Volkswagen, Porche, Cupra, Seat, Skoda), PSA Peugeot-Citroën, General Motors, Jaguar-Landrover (Geely) and BMW. It's still an important OEM builder for car speakers, one of the bigger ones in Europe. Production is still partly in Dendermonde, altough they also got factories elsewhere, including China. You may not have heared of the company or the factory, but the chance is big you heared speakers from them.

Their website: https://www.premiumsoundsolutions.com/

They have been sold again....almost - now to a Chinese company. PSS sold again

 

[Purité Audio]

1) Yeah, but if you were searching for a loudspeaker the size of a shoe box in 1975, and had what they cost back then for your budget, what would you have been looking at?

2) You mean you weren't impressed by Benny Hill?

Benny Hill on the BBC !
Lord Reith would veritably spin in his grave.
Keith

 

[sergeauckland]

Just had some time to burn and ventured to Roger´s website:

Rogers LS3/5A classic speakers — Rogers

Rogers International UK Ltd are pleased to announce the release of the Reborn LS3/5A Classic 15 Ohm speaker. Having previously manufactured over 50,000 pairs of LS3/5A’s, Rogers are now once again manufacturing this landmark speaker in the UK.

www.rogers-hifi.uk

While the company piggybacks on the BBC reputation they dont make any direct claims on sound. H o w e v e r... if you scroll down, they are happy to list all kinds of reviews such as this, which emphasize the fantastic sound in domestic "hifi listenening" environment.... so far to the argument that people nowadays would know where and how to use this speaker.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a93e615af209610a9b4b21d/t/601013639a32f45a78416e3e/1611666279507/STRP_200400_LISTENING_ROGERS.pdf

When reading (just skip through it, it is hard to stomach it so be warned) one doesnt even recognize, that we are this is the same speaker as reviewed here.

Glad we have the facts.

In spite of the pretty website, the company information according to the Public Record from Companies House shows a less pretty picture.

ROGERS INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROGERS INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Company incorporated in February 2003, changed name to Rogers International UK Ltd in October 2003, then lay dormant until at least February 2023 which was the latest filing of accounts for a dormant company.
It has zero employees and share capital of £2!!

I may be missing something, but I don't see the heritage going back to 1947.

S.

 

[Waxx]

In spite of the pretty website, the company information according to the Public Record from Companies House shows a less pretty picture.

ROGERS INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROGERS INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Company incorporated in February 2003, changed name to Rogers International UK Ltd in October 2003, then lay dormant untilat least February 2023 which was the latest filing of accounts for a dormant company.
It has zero employees and share capital of £2!!

I may be missing something, but I don't see the heritage going back to 1947.

S.

Rogers International Ltd (founded in 1947) was sold like so many companies to investors, in 1975 it was sold to an UK investment company called Swisstone, and that company was sold in 1993 to a holding called Wo Kee Hong Holdings (a big electronics holding) who run it from Hong Kong, but keep a part of the production (the historical models) in the UK. The company you refer to is the UK front of that chinese company, and that front does not have any capital by itself. This is a common bussiness practice, as the only thing that UK company does is manage the Roger brand for that Hongkongese holding. It does not make profit or has capital in the UK, it's all in Hong Kong now. Many historic UK companies are managed like that now, not only in audio.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Rogers International Ltd (founded in 1947) was sold like so many companies to investors, in 1975 it was sold to an UK investment company called Swisstone, and that company was sold in 1993 to a holding called Wo Kee Hong Holdings (a big electronics holding) who run it from Hong Kong, but keep a part of the production (the historical models) in the UK. The company you refer to is the UK front of that chinese company, and that front does not have any capital by itself. This is a common bussiness practice, as the only thing that UK company does is manage the Roger brand for that Hongkongese holding. It does not make profit or has capital in the UK, it's all in Hong Kong now. Many historic UK companies are managed like that now, not only in audio.

So the speaker is not manufactured in the UK either?

 

[theREALdotnet]

I cannot believe that posters defend these in any performance-based sense in 2023.

I suppose the posters defending them are the ones who have actually used them in a suitable setup

 

[Purité Audio]

In the back of a small van?
Keith

 

[theREALdotnet]

In the back of a small van?

In a small to medium living room, at near(ish) field distances (2m-2m-2m triangle or similar). Contrary to what the broadcast van purpose would suggest, they benefit greatly from wall distance, especially when you supplement the bass with subwoofers (as you should IMO).

 

[Purité Audio]

Used in free space with a sub woofer does seem some distance way from their original purpose , if one reads through the thread.
Keith

 

[MaxwellsEq]

That is a hypothesis, not fact

Hi @amirm I think we are both working with hypotheses, since none of can drag a modern audio test set back in time to measure the R&D prototypes, the speakers in common use at the BBC, the commercial releases and this exact speaker when it was made

I have one advantage - I've worked with hundreds of these speakers from the different vendors and across a wide range of working age. So, your archaeology is limited because you have one sample which you are comparing to other measurements and articles. My archaeology is limited because I had hundreds of samples, but nothing like the test gear that's available now!

What I should have said at the start is that I think your review is excellent, you have clearly put a lot of thought and care into it, and it draws the correct conclusions!

 

[tjf]

You won't get any backlash from me. I've owned 3 pairs over the years, original TWs and 1as. The later 1as with the Vifa D19 tweeter were somewhat better than the horror-show that was the original Philips based (hex woofer) and nasty poly tweeter.

The TW 1as could sound quite amazing if the stars aligned and the placement/room/ and music worked, but that was rare. Mostly they sounded 'interesting' and a bit of a talking point for people, and if you weren't careful, an irresistibly attractive scratching pole for your cat.

I sold my last pair of TW 1as when my Birman cat looked at them a little too closely and I knew she'd make a meal of them at the first opportunity. Packed them in a cupboard for a while to keep them safe. LOL.

Greetings fellow recovering DCM TW owner...introduce yourself to the other people here in the "DCM cult recovery" meeting...

Looking back at my earliest HiFi purchases at the time ('79 thru '88) and never having more than $1K to spend on speakers (usually way less) there weren't many decent options in the states then -- maybe ADS -- but no other "new england sound" options (Advent, AR, etc.) were worth buying.

I probably should have considered ADS, and maybe Snell's 1st small (K?) speakers at the time -- but after turning my back on DCM I went on to the other "Audiophile approved" brands - Maggie MG1's, Sequerra Metronome 7 sats+8W sub, Dahlquist DQ10's -- but finally by the mid 80's I found a home with Spica TC50's paired with the Sequerra Met8W sub and bi-amped -- this setup gave me pretty good results as long as I accepted the Spica's:
-- response errors,
-- restricted listener positioning/height,
-- Midbass driver dynamic range limitations (helped by adding the Dahlquist DQ-1LP electronic xover with it's HP filtering),
-- and dispersion anomalies of the Spica TC50s -- kinda like how I would have made allowances for the LS3/5a's -- if I'd had a set...

Ok, that's enough boring history stuff

 

[theREALdotnet]

Used in free space with a sub woofer does seem some distance way from their original purpose , if one reads through the thread.

Naturally. They didn’t become popular because a lot of people have broadcast vans, but because they are (serendipitously) good at something they weren’t designed for. Their standout feature (IMO) is stereo presentation.

 

[DSJR]

Hi @amirm I think we are both working with hypotheses, since none of can drag a modern audio test set back in time to measure the R&D prototypes, the speakers in common use at the BBC, the commercial releases and this exact speaker when it was made

I have one advantage - I've worked with hundreds of these speakers from the different vendors and across a wide range of working age. So, your archaeology is limited because you have one sample which you are comparing to other measurements and articles. My archaeology is limited because I had hundreds of samples, but nothing like the test gear that's available now!

What I should have said at the start is that I think your review is excellent, you have clearly put a lot of thought and care into it, and it draws the correct conclusions!

Actually, I think Amir tested a good one!!!

Back in the 70's, the domestic (albeit tight) spec wasn't good enough and ones made especially for the BBC's use, had to be absolute 'centre line' so theoretically the best examples! These had XLR sockets on the back and I know much work went into the BBC pairs oin addition to the calibration done to standard pairs.

 

[DSJR]

Naturally. They didn’t become popular because a lot of people have broadcast vans, but because they are (serendipitously) good at something they weren’t designed for. Their standout feature (IMO) is stereo presentation.

Actually, they offer a slightly out of focus stereo presentation n comparison with their peers (been there, done it and I don't forget these impressions

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Their standout feature (IMO) is stereo presentation.

I agree. What's more, I could set up a pair with different vendors and different years/ages and the stereo image was just as good.

This is what R&D were discovering when researching stereo broadcasting - that commercially available monitors were inconsistent, unit to unit. Making speakers that were identical unit to unit made them swappable, but also made for terrific stereo imaging.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Perhaps that's a lack on insight, do some research on Delia Derbyshire and The BBC Radiophonic workshop to start with and you may be surprised

And that hook was adopted by Pink Floyd (no less!) years later.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I agree. What's more, I could set up a pair with different vendors and different years/ages and the stereo image was just as good.

This is what R&D were discovering when researching stereo broadcasting - that commercially available monitors were inconsistent, unit to unit. Making speakers that were identical unit to unit made them swappable, but also made for terrific stereo imaging.

What I find surprising is that recording studios had been producing stereo recordings for some time yet the speakers they used weren't good enough for the BBC.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

What I find surprising is that recording studios had been producing stereo recordings for some time yet the speakers they used weren't good enough for the BBC.

It's a scale thing. There were only a handful of music recording studios, but hundreds of speech studios, recording booths, OB trucks, editing suites etc. There needed to be a small, high-ish volume product, not a bespoke build.

 

[sktn77a]

Seems the ripoff started after 2007.

I wish people on this forum would stop obsessing over the original erroneous price quoted in this review. No new commercial LS3/5a sells for $5000 (forget the absurd "white belly" Hong Kong prices and the equally absurd "Kingswood Warren" prices). They range in price from $2000 (Mobile Fidelity/Falcon Silver) to about $3200 (Falcon Gold Badge). That's pretty much spot on the inflation line posted above. Whether you consider that inflation-adjusted price worth it is a matter of personal choice. I don't think 90% of the stuff passing itself off as "High End" is worth it, but that's just my opinion.

I hope Amir will correct his price estimate in the first post on this thread so we don't waste any more valuable oxygen complaining about it!