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Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

Dj7675

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#21
This was my unit. I have used this model in my theater in a 7.2.4 atmos setup. In an attempt to find an all in one unit for our living room, I thought I would move it to our living room and try it there. In this typical, unusually shaped living room (that is typically quite noisy) it actually sounds ok with dirac running in a 2.1 setup. The bonus is that it is roon RAAT endpoint. When starting playing from roon it switches to play roon automatically so it is a very family friendly, easy to use unit. Also using the zone 2 and hooking up an inexpensive allo boss for an additional endpoint is quite nice.
This unit is probably sufficient for my living room use. Primary use is watching tv/netflix music via roon (320k aac).
My initial plan was to have one in the theater and another in the living room. However.... these measurements... are really disappointing. I wasn't expecting it to measure all that well considering the measurements we have seen on the receivers measured so far. But definitely didn't anticipate these kind of measurements. With the resources of large companies such as NAD have, there really isn't any excuse for a total disregard of objective measured performance in favor of features.
Now instead of thinking of having 2 of these... it may be either 1 or none...
And thank you to Amir for measuring this and other gear.
 

Timbo2

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#22
So far the problem is whether or not any AVR belongs on that list. Agreed we don't have the measure of the market, but until there are products better than tested so far it does not appear there are any good AVR products. Like already mentioned, look at all the stickers on the front about the great capabilities, but it fails at the most basic level.
My problem is space. And funding of course! I don't have the space to do a music only listening room. And even if I could afford it I don't have the room for multiple amplifiers and a pre-amp processor.
 

audimus

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#23
This was my unit. I have used this model in my theater in a 7.2.4 atmos setup. In an attempt to find an all in one unit for our living room, I thought I would move it to our living room and try it there. In this typical, unusually shaped living room (that is typically quite noisy) it actually sounds ok with dirac running in a 2.1 setup. The bonus is that it is roon RAAT endpoint. When starting playing from roon it switches to play roon automatically so it is a very family friendly, easy to use unit. Also using the zone 2 and hooking up an inexpensive allo boss for an additional endpoint is quite nice.
This unit is probably sufficient for my living room use. Primary use is watching tv/netflix music via roon (320k aac).
My initial plan was to have one in the theater and another in the living room. However.... these measurements... are really disappointing. I wasn't expecting it to measure all that well considering the measurements we have seen on the receivers measured so far. But definitely didn't anticipate these kind of measurements. With the resources of large companies such as NAD have, there really isn't any excuse for a total disregard of objective measured performance in favor of features.
Now instead of thinking of having 2 of these... it may be either 1 or none...
And thank you to Amir for measuring this and other gear.
As disappointing as the measurements were, it was an important data point in this landscape. So, thanks for your kind generosity.

I recommend there be a special badge for equipment lenders for testing in their profile like the other badges of honor.

Apparently, according to AVSforum, they have been replacing the units or the digital module card in some countries for issues with it. Not sure, if this would make it any better.

I would suggest contacting NAD and letting them know of this test and if you have any audible issues without Dirac. Their reaction would also be a useful factor in making purchase decisions. My experience with NAD in this regard many years ago were not positive.
 

daftcombo

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#24
Looks better than totaldac at least.
Perhaps we could have a chart to rate the outside aspect of those expensive products, so that sometimes they win a prize?
 

BDWoody

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#25
Looks better than totaldac at least.
Perhaps we could have a chart to rate the outside aspect of those expensive products, so that sometimes they win a prize?
Maybe a 'Hall of Fame' for overachievers, and a 'Wall of Shame' for those that are really below standard?
 

suttondesign

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#26
Years ago -- 1983? -- I had a Yamaha A-760 integrated amp. Even with the speakers of that era, the thing was crap. It had immediately audible hissing equivalent or greater than the noise floor of LP's. It didn't clip, but it didn't fully power a decent set of 3-ways, either.

I have assumed that even inexpensive modern integrated stuff would blow old stuff away. Rf. -- Car & Driver's new comparo of the Acura NSX with the new Civic -- the Civic wins handily! Also, in consumer-grade audio, we have not come far. Even for real money, receivers are junk. Not that we should be surprised. At least my old Yamaha was sort of pretty and fairly robust. The stuff at Best Buy is flimsy and bud-tugly.
 

Rja4000

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#27
Just a stupid question:
Isn't that amp Dirac ready?
I guess the resampling to 96kHz is caused by that:
My minidsp DDRC-22D is also working at 96kHz.
May that be the cause of this low SINAD too?
I mean: is there any DSP forced in the audio signal path?
 

zermak

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#28
Thank you Amir for the review and thanks to the loaner.
My brother has a T748... These numbers on this unit make me worry fot its permormance. Probably the DAC section is the same or even worse than this one.
Glad I opted for a PC and a discrete and cheap soundcard to handle the conversion and ICEpower ASX modules for the 5 channels amplification :)
 

JJB70

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#29
SAL1950 posted the following in the Pioneer review thread:

Thanks Amir for another AVR review, mucho appreciated!
Let me be the devils advocate for a bit here. Just for one example, this is a $1000 AVR that supplies how many channels of DAC, 11 or 12? Our cheapest "recommended" Topping DAC is $100 for just 2 channels. Times all the rest of the functions this complete AVR offers? Then there's the software licenses of things from Dolby/DBX HDMI, etc etc etc. Add to that the fact that these guys go obsolite nearly every year as the newest lastest surround codec's are released and so much more.
I wonder if we're not missing a bit of the big picture with these things. If Joe Sixpack gets 5+ years service from one of these $1K HT boxes before it fails or he's looking for something newer, he's probably got his money worth. Resale value in that time is about zero.
Want a top knoch Pre/Pre? Trinnov's cheaper basic Altitude 16 will only cost you around $17,000
I'm not supporting poor engineering, just trying to calculate in bang for the buck.
Yep, times have changed since the heyday of stereo receivers. But I think I paid right at $600 for my Marantz 2270 with it's walnut case in 1974. In today cash that's damn near $3k, for simple stereo.


I think SAL made some very good comments.

These AVRs are effectively like 3.5 regular two channel amplifiers, and their target audience seems to have a "more is better" attitude to power meaning they want more power than typical entry - mid level two channel integrated amplifiers.
They will have a DAC, multiple inputs, including HDMI, 4K pass through etc, wifi, digital signal processing, many have on-board room correction software and auto-set up, various Dolby and DTS decoding functionality and probably a lot more.

If you take a price of $1400 for example, that would get you a superb two channel integrated amplifier, but that amplifier wouldn't drive 7 channels, wouldn't have all the DSP, DTS, Dolby (I'm guessing those licenses come at a cost), HDMI interfaces etc etc although you'd easily get a good amp with an on-board DAC and wireless.

To play devil advocate like SAL, divide your $1400 by 3.5 and you get $400. Now $400 would get you a pretty decent two channel amp with a DAC and wireless (you can find the Yamaha WXA50 for that) but you still wouldn't be getting all that signal processing, room correction, DTS, Dolby etc.

I don't think many products show such a disconnect between price and performance as audio equipment, but in this case I do think AVRs are expected to do a hell of a lot for prices that are not especially high in the world of hifi, and I suspect it is a function rather than audio quality led segment (i.e. people are looking for the right feature set rather than ultimate sound quality). And despite this, their audible performance isn't that bad regardless of bad measurements. The owner of this particular AVR appears to have been pretty happy with performance until seeing the measurements.

I realise this probably sounds like I am excusing bad design and sub-par performance, but I'd prefer to think of it more as maybe pointing out that things have to seen in context and even in audio at a certain point you sort of get what you pay for. In the case of AVRs you can get plentiful power, DSP, room correction, 7 power amp channels, a shed lode of DTS and Dolby licenses, wireless functionality and a lot more for $1400, or a lot less if you lose some features, but is it appropriate to expect the audio performance of such a device at that price to match much simpler two channel integrated amplifiers and DACs?
 

LightninBoy

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#32
This makes me glad I went with separates. Over the 15 years since I bought them, my amps have been fed now by 3 different pre/pros. First Outlaw, then NAD, then Emotiva. The NAD didn't last long, even though it was the higher end Masters series. One day it just stopped working, and all the fancy milled aluminum that indicated it was "high end" didn't help. This was a few months after I tore it down to fix a faulty volume knob that randomly jumped around and nearly blew out my speakers.

The amps just keep right on trucking though. Especially the Bryston, which even after all this time its market value is a just few hundred dollars less than I bought it.
 

Sal1950

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#33
The overall fit and finish of the NAD T758 V3 was to my liking as I reported earlier.
Working awful hard to find anything good to say here eh Amir. ;) Personally I always found NAD cosmetic design to be a good bit cheesy looking with it's smooth dark gray plastic from panels, etc
This really is a damn shame, it's 40% more expensive than the Pioneer 504 and under-performs it by near that margin, somethings gone all upside-down and wonky here.
For whatever reasons, I always had a strange feeling that the powers that be in high end audio were giving NAD a slide in their oft very positive subjective reviews and strong bang for the buck impressions.
A big thanks to @Dj7675 for sending this guy in. We're all learning and Amir's hard work may move the industry forward encouraging them to focus more on better designs that will bring out better products without totally braking their profit margins. (I hope)
 
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vkvedam

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#34
Thanks for this @amirm it would be worth measuring Anthem and Arcam
 

Sal1950

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#35
This makes me glad I went with separates. Over the 15 years since I bought them, my amps have been fed now by 3 different pre/pros. First Outlaw, then NAD, then Emotiva. The NAD didn't last long, even though it was the higher end Masters series. One day it just stopped working, and all the fancy milled aluminum that indicated it was "high end" didn't help. This was a few months after I tore it down to fix a faulty volume knob that randomly jumped around and nearly blew out my speakers.

The amps just keep right on trucking though. Especially the Bryston, which even after all this time its market value is a just few hundred dollars less than I bought it.
Completely different 2 channel animals built with a whole other price to feature checklist.
 

BDWoody

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#36
This makes me glad I went with separates. Over the 15 years since I bought them, my amps have been fed now by 3 different pre/pros. First Outlaw, then NAD, then Emotiva. The NAD didn't last long, even though it was the higher end Masters series. One day it just stopped working, and all the fancy milled aluminum that indicated it was "high end" didn't help. This was a few months after I tore it down to fix a faulty volume knob that randomly jumped around and nearly blew out my speakers.

The amps just keep right on trucking though. Especially the Bryston, which even after all this time its market value is a just few hundred dollars less than I bought it.
Those 20 YEAR warranties say a lot.
 

RichB

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#37
For my 2-channel game room, I sold my Yamaha RX-A820 and replaced it with an Oppo UPD-205 directly into an AHB2. That's quite a bit more money but the performance is outstanding driving the Revel M20s. Even with a high-value amp, it would be worth it since the 205 supports Roon.

I gave up on AVR amps years ago and am a bit surprised that they are not very good DACs or preamps.

- Rich
 

restorer-john

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#40
It can still use power supply rail switching to keep power consumption low.
Not without another set of transistors for each amplifier for the HV rails it can't. Glass G is not as simple as two rails.

14x TO3Ps for seven channels- it's plain old class AB- and really cheaply and inadequately built for that IMO.

Also, your testing is two channels only. Unless you can drive all the channels and measure them, the comments on overall power output capability are relatively meaningless. The PSU is only having to deal with 2 out of 7 channels so it's a best case number. Sure, testing it properly requires at least 7 dummy loads, but what is the point testing a multichannel AVR as a 2ch stereo amplifier? That's not what people are buying is it?

Anyway, it looks like yet another fail from a company that previously once had a modicum of integrity. I think testing AVRs is not going to be a rewarding pursuit in the long run- the headless Pink Panther will get plenty of photoshoots that's for sure. :)
 
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