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Relative importance of each component

MattHooper

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Then don't get a turntable! And don't buy vinyl! ....Unless you really know what you're getting into.

Eh. Tons of people have bought turntables/vinyl without really knowing much about it, and have been happy.

But I get the gist of your warning - if an audiophile is looking for the best possible sound from vinyl, then yes it's good to get knowledgeable about it before buying. Though an audiophile may not be that demanding of his vinyl playback, if it's simply an addition to his digital music.


The best record & turntable can't match the sound quality a good MP3 played on your computer or smartphone or whatever you've got (assuming you are plugged into good speakers and an amp, etc.). I mention MP3 because it's a lossy format... Probably the "worst" digital format you're likely to be using for music. But you don't get the background noise that you get from a record, or the frequency response variations, or the occasional distortion. With MP3 can get compression artifacts but with high-bitrates they are usually very hard to hear if you can hear them at all. I have an iPod Classic full of MP3s that I ripped from CDs, hooked-up to my car stereo. Every time I've thought I was hearing a compression artifact it's turned-out that the CD has the same "defect". (I've never done any ABX tests where I might hear a difference... I'm not trying to hear defects.. I'm just trying to enjoy the music.)

While I don't quite agree about the vinyl not being able to match the sound quality of a good MP3 (I have vinyl that I find matches the sound quality of it's CD digital counterpart, at least to me), I do agree with you about the excellent sound quality that can be had with MP3, for the reasons you gave.

I'm not super particular about my digital source. I find regular red-book CD quality to be great, and I also stream plenty of compressed internet music stations which sound fantastic on my system. In fact I had a guest who wanted to hear music on my system this week. Among the things I played was a compressed MP3 file. Didn't matter it wasn't lossless, it sounded spectacular!
 

Mnyb

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It's more about choosing the right amp for the job, as opposed to how one 'sounds' vs another.

If it doesn't have enough power for your speakers/room, that's going to shortchange things, but most decent amps are going to very hard to differentiate if kept under clipping levels.
Depending on room size and how perverse the speaker impedance and sensitivity is .

One speaker migth be happy with a topping PA5 and something else migth need some big mono block’s for >20 times the money ( in the extreme end )

And your room correction needs migth eat both SNR and amp power for you :)
 
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ELberto

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All comments appreciated.
Amp comments noted. Early in my system's life I used a middle of the road Yamaha AVR and when I replaced that with the Marantz... whoa. Absolutely huge difference in every conceivable sq measurement. In functionality no but for music it changed how I thought about amps. Knowing what I know now I'll downgrade that value.
 

DanielT

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In descending order of importance:

1.FR on, off axes. Frequency curves, frequency response
2.Directivity, dispersion of the sound.
3.Distortion and noise (noise can sometimes be audible due to connections, humming mechanical noise from transformers. Then it can end up in place 1, but I'll leave that at that, )

So where does the respective gadget in the audio chain produce this? Directivity no electronics have to do with that. , even though it is important. BUT dispersion and speakers, there it really determines how it sounds. Dispersion that is.

FR then? For most electronics pancake flat FR. Speakers are another thing. A completely different thing. There it can really go up and down, apparently audible.

Distortion and noise? Inaudible for many cheap DACs and many amps to as long as you don't drive the amps into clipping. Power and headroom power is a good rule of thumb. But speakers and distortion, there it can really be audible.

Plus whatever music you plug into the system. If it has high dynamics, good recording, it has. Nothing you can conjure up in the sound chain. It doesn't get better in than out.

Room acoustics. Everyone, even those who don't do HiFi, know what that means. Moving into a new apartment, house. Play with the HiFi system in a completely empty room vs then furnished with carpets and various furniture. Like night and day. How much furniture, acoustic fixes, a matter of taste.:)

Edit:
To get the finer tuning there, ASR can help you. I addressed the extremes regarding room acoustics.

Edit 2:
Regarding the quality of musical recording It plays a big role in the sound BUT for my own part I don't care about it. I can't bear to research every record /song. I only play music and hope for the best. If I kept trying to avoid bad/good sound quality on recordings, I would just keep doing that and not listen to music.
 
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MattHooper

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As to ordering of component importance: I think a combination of theory and personal experience will likely influence our choices.

Most of us understand that it's pretty easy to get accurate amplification and an accurate DAC these days, and that speakers (and room interaction) remains the biggest bottle neck to accuracy and sound quality.

I've had various personal experiences that re-enforced this idea. For instance the first time I heard Quad ESL 63s was in a pal's basement hooked up to a modest Dynaco ST-70 amp, no-name cables, and a cheap CD player. And yet the sound blew my mind and was paradigm-changing (first real experience hearing an electrostatic speaker). To paraphrase the old cliche "It's The Speaker, Stupid."

Another time was visiting a speaker manufacturer's house - John Otvos of Waveform. Otvos had is speakers designed with an aim towards accuracy, excellent off-axis performance, with the input of excellent speaker designers and the use of the NRC. His "egg module" designs were getting rave reviews. At his home he made a point of demoing his speakers (tri-amplified) powered by cheap "non-audiophile approved" amps (Kenwood IIRC) and no-name cables (he thought that was all B.S.) Well, the sound was startling. The system effortlessly outperformed so many of the super expensive systems I'd been hearing (many hooked up go gazillion dollars worth of amps/cables).

It was another moment re-enforcing how big a role the speakers play vs the other components. (I've also heard some excellent speakers that I owned that I sold to another audiophile. In his system he had them hooked up to ludicrously expensive cables, power conditioners, amps etc. I didn't notice any increase in sound quality at all from what I had at home).

On the other hand, I guess once you've taken care of the speaker end of things (bought speakers you like) the more subtle contributions of other components can seem more prominent. And some of this can be of purely subjective importance/evaluation. What may be important to you may not be to someone else, of course.

In my case, I found my tube amps seem to play a very important role in my enjoyment of my system. A number of times I've put other amps (e.g. Harman Kardon, Bryston solid state) in to my system and the result was always that I found the experience less interesting, and found myself listening less and less to the system. One time my tube amps blew a fuse, I was lazy about getting them fixed so substituted our Harman Kardon amp. I found myself listening to the system less and less over time, and I attributed my lack of feeling compelled to sit down to just losing interest in audio. So I decided to sell my tube amps. I had them serviced/fixed and before putting them up for sale I put them back in the system to double check they were working ok. But I found myself utterly transfixed again, that smooth, unmechanical gorgeous sound was back, and I couldn't stop playing music. So I kept them...and have enjoyed my system ever since :)

Even subtle differences can have large subjective impact, if it's something you care about. (For instance, my friend's system sounds decidedly more detailed and vivid than my system in some respects, but it doesn't make me want to sit and listen for long periods of time - I prefer the tone of my system).
 
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Azazello13

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The truest advice I've ever come across on this topic was something I found on this forum. It's old and could be updated for current technology, but it is still 100% apt.

1659075072251.png
 

BDWoody

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The truest advice I've ever come across on this topic was something I found on this forum. It's old and could be updated for current technology, but it is still 100% apt.

View attachment 226422

As usual, Mr. Aczel nailed it.

Nothing new under the sun.
 

MattHooper

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The truest advice I've ever come across on this topic was something I found on this forum. It's old and could be updated for current technology, but it is still 100% apt.

View attachment 226422

That really does nail it!

(His histrionic comments on toob amps notwithstanding ;-) )
 

Keened

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I bought 2 of the RSL Speedwoofers.
:cool: nice I have two as well, they can cross fairly high as well if you're locating them next to the monitors/speakers.

I would return the pre-amp, forget Vinyl is even a thing until later, get a Digital Room Correction capable DAC/'digital pre-amp' (*cough* MiniDSP Flex but I'm biased towards it) or modern AVR (or wait for the AVPs theoretically releasing Q3/Q4 this year) and then a used amp or maybe some ncore amps (some members make them very reasonably priced).
 

Sal1950

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Then don't get a turntable! And don't buy vinyl! ....Unless you really know what you're getting into.
Amen.
If you're interested in listening to a great sound, just spend all you can afford on speakers, room treatment, and quality digital recordings..
Any amount you might spend on vinyl that limits your budget on the above will have a negative impact on the bottom line's system quality.
Of course if you're quite wealthy and money is not an object, buy whatever toys suite your fancy.
@MattHooper, our resident vinyl lover, has the cost of a small house invested in his turntable and always shows up to defend it's virtues. ;)
 

Azazello13

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Then don't get a turntable! And don't buy vinyl! ....Unless you really know what you're getting into.

I don't agree. If you think you might enjoy listening to vinyl, then you probably will. It's great. But what I would say is, don't buy a piece of crap like the AT-LP60. There are good new turntables at reasonable price, but I think the best advice would be to find something from the early-mid 80s by Sony / Technics / Pioneer / Sansui, etc. that was mid-to-high end at the time and still works. That thing will be a tank.
 

Sal1950

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In my case, I found my tube amps seem to play a very important role in my enjoyment of my system.
Of course, they all sound difference, they're tone controls.
Properly designed modern solid state amps all sound the same, they sound like the source, and that's what High Fidelity is all about.
 
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ELberto

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As to ordering of component importance: I think a combination of theory and personal experience will likely influence our choices.

Most of us understand that it's pretty easy to get accurate amplification and an accurate DAC these days, and that speakers (and room interaction) remains the biggest bottle neck to accuracy and sound quality.

I've had various personal experiences that re-enforced this idea. For instance the first time I heard Quad ESL 63s was in a pal's basement hooked up to a modest Dynaco ST-70 amp, non-name cables, and a cheap CD player. And yet the sound blew my mind and was paradigm-changing (first real experience hearing an electrostatic speaker). To paraphrase the old cliche "It's The Speaker, Stupid."

Another time was visiting a speaker manufacturer's house - John Otvos of Waveform. Otvos had is speakers designed with an aim towards accuracy, excellent off-axis performance, with the input of excellent speaker designers and the use of the NRC. His "egg module" designs were getting rave reviews. At his home he made a point of demoing his speakers (tri-amplified) powered by cheap "non-audiophile approved" amps (Kenwood IIRC) and no-name cables (he thought that was all B.S.) Well, the sound was startling. The system effortlessly outperformed so many of the super expensive systems I'd been hearing (many hooked up go gazillion dollars worth of amps/cables).

It was another moment re-enforcing how big a role the speaker play vs the other components. (I've also heard some excellent speakers that I owned that I sold to another audiophile. In his system he had them hooked up to ludicoursly expensive cables, power conditioners, amps etc. I didn't notice any increase in sound quality at all from what I had at home).

On the other hand, I guess once you've taken care of the speaker end of things (bought speakers you like) the more subtle contributions of other components can seem more prominent. And some of this can be of purely subjective importance/evaluation. What may be important to you may not be to someone else, of course.

In my case, I found my tube amps seem to play a very important role in my enjoyment of my system. A number of times I've put other amps (e.g. Harman Kardon, Bryston solid state) in to my system and the result was always that I found the experience less interesting, and found myself listening less and less to the system. One time my tube amps blew a fuse, I was lazy about getting them fixed so substituted our Harman Kardon amp. I found myself listening to the system less and less over time, and I attributed my lack of feeling compelled to sit down to just losing interest in audio. So I decided to sell my tube amps. I had them serviced/fixed and before putting them up for sale I put them back in the system to double check they were working ok. But I found myself utterly transfixed again, that smooth, unmechanical gorgeous sound was back, and I couldn't stop playing music. So I kept them...and have enjoyed my system ever since :)

Even subtle differences can have large subjective impact, if it's something you care about. (For instance, my friend's system sounds decidedly more detailed and vivid than my system in some respects, but it doesn't make me want to sit and listen for long periods of time - I prefer the tone of my system).
So much of this hits home for me. My next space will be put together from scratch in terms of treatment. I'm gonna take that right out of the equation so I can bee-line to listening nirvana.
 

Gorgonzola

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The truest advice I've ever come across on this topic was something I found on this forum. It's old and could be updated for current technology, but it is still 100% apt.

View attachment 226422
Aczel's list is great but a bit out of date in that it doesn't discuss streamer or computer sources, DAC, or DSP.

I'd place DSP right after listening room and speaker positioning, but practical DSP solutions are varied and usually depend on components further down the list.

Aczel wasn't thinking about streamers or computer music players at the time he wrote this, but sound quality-wise they fall into the "line level" category. DSP or at least the frequency correction aspect is often accommodated within streamers or music players.

Looking for a "silver bullet" solution competently combining streamer, Dirac Live DSP, and preamp? Take a look at miniDSP's SHD, or at their SHD Power that further combines a decently powerful amplifier.
 
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lc6

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#1 Main L/R speakers with relatively flat FR. About 23 years ago, I invested in a floorstanding 200+ lb pair whose FR is +/-2 dB from 24 to 20,000 Hz, half-space anechoic and hand-tuned at the factory to +/- 0.5 dB from design reference. They sounded great in the showroom, in a large room in the previous home, and in a mid-size room in the current home, even if placed close to tall pieces of furniture and regardless of distance from the back wall (within reason); they continue to sound awesome to this day. So I do not believe that placement is as critical as many claim, unless one has small 2-way bookshelf-type speakers and/or speakers with poor dispersion characteristics.
#2 Amplifier. I first drove the above speakers with a decent Sony AVR, and they sounded fine. But when I upgraded to a higher-end Yamaha AVR, the speakers really came to life, especially on the low-end. Need adequate capacitance in the power supply to produce sufficient current if you listen to bass-deep/heavy material.
#3 Other speakers, if using a multi-channel system, all with a relatively flat FR. It recently took me 3 purchases/auditions to find suitable center and surround upgrades that match the main speakers reasonably well, and I was able to do so based on reviews with measurements on ASR, Erin's Audio Corner and Audioholics.
#4 A decent quality streamer + DAC that can pull FLAC files ripped directly from CDs (an inexpensive computer drive will do, so long as an error-detecting software is used) and stored on the LAN (even a USB flash drive attached to a router is fine thanks to TCP) or HD/Ultra-HD FLAC streams. This is why a high-end AVR with a good DAC is a cost-effective solution.
#5 Vinyl is largely a scam that leverages snobbery. Dynamic range of ~12-13 bits when brand new, poor SNR and channel separation, FR of only ~16 kHz on inner tracks and affected by RIAA equalization, mastered from digital files anyway (re: the recent MoFiGate), performance inevitably deteriorating with each play. But I can appreciate the associated nostalgic rituals and tangibility of media, especially of owned for a long time.
 
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ELberto

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I don't agree. If you think you might enjoy listening to vinyl, then you probably will. It's great. But what I would say is, don't buy a piece of crap like the AT-LP60. There are good new turntables at reasonable price, but I think the best advice would be to find something from the early-mid 80s by Sony / Technics / Pioneer / Sansui, etc. that was mid-to-high end at the time and still works. That thing will be a tank.
I was thinking along the lines of making it an enjoyable part of the hobby but I have trouble getting past the noise issue and then just the inconvenience, albeit minor, of having to get up and change records, or not being able to simply click a button to move to another track. First world problems :D
 
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GXAlan

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I'm surprised you guys are putting the amp so far down the list but ok, good to know.

You have the X4700H which is a pretty good place to start. Relative to everything else, it's not a weak point.

Amplifiers do sound different through coloration of the sound. Marantz has built a whole company around coloration and they acknowledge it. The presence of vinyl and tubes in 2022 representing force non-defeatable content-specific and speaker-specific tone controls shows that there are people who do in fact enjoy that coloration too.

@Sal1950 will insist that pure transparency is all you need, and for most listening volumes/speakers, the X4700H is going to be pretty transparent. I have owned several Adcom GFA-555 II's in the past (running as monoblocks).

My thoughts on amplifier sound are here:

Marantz Japan makes comments about tuning the sound via the pre-amp in their PM-10 since the HypeX amps have no coloration here (use Google Translate)

- At the presentation of the PM-10, I think you talked about the "lack of coloring" unique to switching amplifiers. Could you elaborate on this point?

Sawada: A switching amplifier using a switching power supply like the PM-10 does not have a huge block capacitor like an analog power supply. A condenser is a tank that stores electricity to drive a speaker, and a transformer can be thought of as serving to store electricity here.

A condenser is a "suspicious thing" with a non-linear characteristic, and it is an element that colors the sound. And it is the condenser that determines the sound the most in the tuning of the amplifier. However, for analog amplifiers, capacitors are indispensable, and how to put them together well is the highlight of your skills.

On the other hand, in some switching amplifiers, there is no good or bad cause of colorization called large capacitors. That's why it rings so loudly. Of course, there are also conflicting elements, such as the inability to tune the sound quality with a condenser, and there are problems that need to be solved only by switching amplifiers, such as noise suppression.

- Yes.

Sawada: If there is not one major factor that determines the sound, it will be different. However, there is a merit that there is no such thing. There is such a thing as a goodness that cannot be relied upon, but that does not depend on it.

Ogata: So, the character of the preamp appears more strongly in the sound. The Hypex switching amplifier is a key device of the PM-10, but it can be said that the amplifier technology that Marantz has cultivated is becoming more pronounced in sound than ever before
 

AdamG

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I’ll play:

1. Speakers
2. Subs 2-min
3. AVR/PRE/AMP W) Room correction EQ.
4. Source/Streamer/player/DAC
5. A good microphone, tripod/boom, REW and learn how to use it.
5. Everything Else….
 
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