Analysis paralysis and genereal audio component confusion

[Zwuckel]

@Tom C If I use the DSP for negating room modes without treatment, doesn´t that mean I have no sound at those frequencies at all or at least at lower volume?

@Waxx Thanks for the advice. Haven´t thought about it. After a bit of reasearch I think a good solution would be a Topping D50s paired with a L30II. There is good measurements, Remote, BT and enough juice for most headphones.

@AnalogSteph Thanks for checking my headphones. I wouldn´t have thought someone measured them. Can´t go wrong trying out the AKGs. Your hunch is right, it was overall thin and no presence. But I think it was partly the fault of me choosing a weak headphone out. I looked at the RME a lot of times, but that is maybe something more for my later years. Do you mean it should be advantageous to change my reference?

 

[ozzy9832001]

@Tom C If I use the DSP for negating room modes without treatment, doesn´t that mean I have no sound at those frequencies at all or at least at lower volume?

You can't negate a null without treatment, and even then, it requires a lot of it. Positioning to avoid the lowest ones and then the highest can be treated. Trying to boost out of a null will not only require a significant amount of additional power from the AMP, but also further complicate the room response off axis. You can EQ a peak, but that will only effect that peak at that point in time, and may cause a problem in a different position. If you are in a single listening position and never move your head that's fine, but who listens to music with a head in a vice. Need a good 1'x1' area around your head. I'd recommend EQing to the Moving Mic Method and then using single point measurements to look at decay, spetrogram, etc.

 

[Zwuckel]

@ozzy9832001 Thanks for the recommendation. I will look the moving mic method up.

I´ve just seen that the D50s has only Coax in. I tried to look for a better measured device than the Motu, as the headphone amp is also not that great on that. Also tried to save a few Euros. The Motu doesn´t have a Remote either. The easiest way would be I see would be to get the rather expensive Neumann Volume Control, a D10s and a L30II. Then I am still missing BT but I think I can live with that. Throw a Qudelix into the mix and that would be solved as well. Total of the first three would be 560 Euro. Does that add up?

 

[Tom C]

You can't negate a null without treatment, and even then, it requires a lot of it. Positioning to avoid the lowest ones and then the highest can be treated. Trying to boost out of a null will not only require a significant amount of additional power from the AMP, but also further complicate the room response off axis. You can EQ a peak, but that will only effect that peak at that point in time, and may cause a problem in a different position. If you are in a single listening position and never move your head that's fine, but who listens to music with a head in a vice. Need a good 1'x1' area around your head. I'd recommend EQing to the Moving Mic Method and then using single point measurements to look at decay, spetrogram, etc.

Why would you try to boost a null? If it’s a cancellation, that’s a fool’s errand.

 

[Tom C]

@Tom C If I use the DSP for negating room modes without treatment, doesn´t that mean I have no sound at those frequencies at all or at least at lower volume?

@Waxx Thanks for the advice. Haven´t thought about it. After a bit of reasearch I think a good solution would be a Topping D50s paired with a L30II. There is good measurements, Remote, BT and enough juice for most headphones.

@AnalogSteph Thanks for checking my headphones. I wouldn´t have thought someone measured them. Can´t go wrong trying out the AKGs. Your hunch is right, it was overall thin and no presence. But I think it was partly the fault of me choosing a weak headphone out. I looked at the RME a lot of times, but that is maybe something more for my later years. Do you mean it should be advantageous to change my reference?

If you try to boost a cancellation with DSP, it won’t work

 

[Emerald Metaphor]

Hi there,

Background info: I am lurking and reading for quite a while. Currently I suffer from analysis paralysis and huge audio component confusion. My goal is to enjoy music, not analyze it, with the best possible audio equipment I can afford. I don´t want to upgrade my chain every 2 years, thinking that my sound will be soooo much better. I don´t want to experiment with thousands of different components. I think I don´t like mudiness. Thats an absolut nogo. I don´t like a veil and heaviness. So I guess that´s clear and precise. I don´t like too much treble and harshness. The listening room I will have in 2 years maybe is 2,50 x 3m with ceiling height at 2,40cm. That´s 8.2 x 9.8 and ceiling is 7.8. I live in Germany.

I listen to orchestra, modern funk, modern jazz, light electro, HipHop, Math Rock. (Scary Pockets, Son Lux, video game orchestra music, Tricot, Yaosobi, Tigran Hamasyan) Source is often Youtube because of Tiny Desk, Audiotree and Orchestra recordings.

I am aware that I have to listen for myself, but then there are too options and too many opinions too reduce those options.

My audio experience so far: - Adam A7X, was too harsh, the tweeter was painful, the listening not enjoyable. - Owned some RP-600M, was fun, but too muddy, too forward, the general quality was not good for me. - Tested a lot of headphones with a Scarlet. Now I know that this was not saying anything.

My Audio shop experience before today: - First shopping was 3 years ago. About 10-15k range for the whole system. I was sat down in a listening room w/o any guidance. The room refelcted very weird, and the sound was standing in the air very weirdly.

Confusion part: First I was all about headphones. It was said hp are cheaper for the sound quality they produce. For HD600 you need at least a system that´s about 5k to have the same quality. Then I tested with the Scarlet. That was rubbish. Then sometimes I feel somewhat claustrophobic with hp. Plus that I may get a dedicated listening room I was back to speakers. I also like the "freedom" of my ears.

I thought about Kef R3s with A-S701, then I asked myself about DAC and figured I need an extra one, although the Yamaha has on built in... (801 is not available). Then I read that the Kefs could be harsh and unforgiving. Thought about the room and researched me to exhaustion about Genelec. Because they are more direct and can take the room out the equation plus DSP (GLM) and it was said that I can easily EQ them to my liking, IF they are too whatever. Then I researched about the connection from my laptop to those things. Went from AES/EBU (which I still couldn´t figure out connection wise) to a MOTU2. Figured it doesn´t have XLR output but just line out. Went to the shop today and the salesman that Genelec is more for critical listen. Which I don´t want necesarily. He showed me the Focus 10. His word: "The Focus 10 have the electronics of the professional series but is tuned to music listening." I was not overwhelmed by the sound but I think thats a good sign. But they had punch and were loud enough and come with DSP. But then I am afraid about what happens if they have a defect in 6-10 years. Seperate components are easier to replace. Of course as a good salesman he said that this is not a problem, since they have the pro line stuff and that it can be replaced fast and easily and that they had actives from 20 years ago that are working just fine (T+W). We also thought about the Evoke 30 and the first second in that conversation he added "We would choose a great amp for good power.) Somewhere in between I thought about Klipsch as they are about fun, but then the Heresy and Forte would be overkill.

The problem: As stated above I need to listen. But because of bad audio memory I would have to listen in comparison to other components. Also my room will be different to the stores rooms. Then I´d need 50k, 2 years sabbatical and very generous return policies. So impractical.

Questions part:

1) Can I EQ Studio monitors like the Genelex 8330 that they are less revealing and more forgiving? Is it an EQ parameter thing or is it the technicality of the speakers?

2) If I pair e.g. Dynaudio Evoke 20s with a Yamaha A-S701 or a Hegel H95 is there a big difference? Isn´t watts watts, current current and lack of distortion lack of distortion? I am not searching for the holy grail and absolut perfection. I don´t have the time and money to do that.

3) Can I pair DSP with passives? Is EQ enough? I use APO atm. Is it helpful formy particular room?

4) The salesman recommended not to go with a sub in my particular room. Thoughts? The Focus 10 seemed to have quite a rolloff in the bottom although it shouldn´t be the case.

5) Any advice would be helpful as of today I´d say I listen on my 80 bucks Pioneer till the end of time Thanks in advance for all help hints advice.

Zwuckel

I just saw this post, you made it on my birthday!!! I am happy to contribute to this more recent and active site with replies, but I think these little boxes don't do well for the more general insights you are looking for. I have spent the last 5 years or so piecing together, for maybe $4500, an active, DSP'ed, vertically bi-amped system composed of: Snell Type Ai's (1979!), a refurbished but all original early gen Dynaco ST-70, an NAD C270, a Marantz HDDAC-1 and a DaytonAudio 408, oh and 2 mismatched cheapie Energy subs that go active too (my next upgrade, MUSICAL ACTIVE PAIRED SUBS!!!). I do have a background in science, took all the engineering level courses, and spent months wading thru forums, etc. getting to my only now stable and GIANT KILLER system. If you want to touch base on or offline, maybe to start a skype call is great, I am happy to share both my wisdumb and my lucky mistakes here. I think I can help anyone get past the hype. For example, this whole digital versus audio debate is stupid. It is much more about the signal path from source to sink, the source quality, DO YOU HAVE THE POWER YOUR SPEAKERS NEED TO RUN IN YOUR AMP'S SWEET SPOTS, and there is no perfection possible here, SPEAKERS MATTER THE MOST, all other things being equal, so there is just what you can and can't do with the budget you have and your tolerance for experimentation.

ROOM changes CAN RUIN OR FIX SYSTEMS, if and when you move too!!!

The really bad news I have for you is this: You will end up chasing the dragon every time you go thru all your music on whatever system you are first happy with. This is because we only really ever notice differences in quality, not absolutes, so sooner or later even the best system in the world will get stale with your favourite sources. I tend to try and replace or upgrade, whatever, every 5 years or so, just to hear all the super modern or vintage gear I can. There is no final system, but it is possible to get past the consumer hype and build something that gets 98% of the way there, such that you can get up into that audiophile air in a way that meets your technical and money limits. So much insanely good used vintage gear out there, but it all seems to be going up and up lately, no wonder, we are all stuck inside too much lately!

Brian, writing from the apex of a Nerd near field equilateral Triangle with 7.5 foot sides rocking out to some Depeche Mode, next up Japanese noise music, hope those square waves don't melt my voice coils, lol. Loving it!

 

[Rmar]

Hi there,

Background info: I am lurking and reading for quite a while. Currently I suffer from analysis paralysis and huge audio component confusion. My goal is to enjoy music, not analyze it, with the best possible audio equipment I can afford. I don´t want to upgrade my chain every 2 years, thinking that my sound will be soooo much better. I don´t want to experiment with thousands of different components. I think I don´t like mudiness. Thats an absolut nogo. I don´t like a veil and heaviness. So I guess that´s clear and precise. I don´t like too much treble and harshness. The listening room I will have in 2 years maybe is 2,50 x 3m with ceiling height at 2,40cm. That´s 8.2 x 9.8 and ceiling is 7.8. I live in Germany.

I listen to orchestra, modern funk, modern jazz, light electro, HipHop, Math Rock. (Scary Pockets, Son Lux, video game orchestra music, Tricot, Yaosobi, Tigran Hamasyan) Source is often Youtube because of Tiny Desk, Audiotree and Orchestra recordings.

I am aware that I have to listen for myself, but then there are too options and too many opinions too reduce those options.

My audio experience so far: - Adam A7X, was too harsh, the tweeter was painful, the listening not enjoyable. - Owned some RP-600M, was fun, but too muddy, too forward, the general quality was not good for me. - Tested a lot of headphones with a Scarlet. Now I know that this was not saying anything.

My Audio shop experience before today: - First shopping was 3 years ago. About 10-15k range for the whole system. I was sat down in a listening room w/o any guidance. The room refelcted very weird, and the sound was standing in the air very weirdly.

Confusion part: First I was all about headphones. It was said hp are cheaper for the sound quality they produce. For HD600 you need at least a system that´s about 5k to have the same quality. Then I tested with the Scarlet. That was rubbish. Then sometimes I feel somewhat claustrophobic with hp. Plus that I may get a dedicated listening room I was back to speakers. I also like the "freedom" of my ears.

I thought about Kef R3s with A-S701, then I asked myself about DAC and figured I need an extra one, although the Yamaha has on built in... (801 is not available). Then I read that the Kefs could be harsh and unforgiving. Thought about the room and researched me to exhaustion about Genelec. Because they are more direct and can take the room out the equation plus DSP (GLM) and it was said that I can easily EQ them to my liking, IF they are too whatever. Then I researched about the connection from my laptop to those things. Went from AES/EBU (which I still couldn´t figure out connection wise) to a MOTU2. Figured it doesn´t have XLR output but just line out. Went to the shop today and the salesman that Genelec is more for critical listen. Which I don´t want necesarily. He showed me the Focus 10. His word: "The Focus 10 have the electronics of the professional series but is tuned to music listening." I was not overwhelmed by the sound but I think thats a good sign. But they had punch and were loud enough and come with DSP. But then I am afraid about what happens if they have a defect in 6-10 years. Seperate components are easier to replace. Of course as a good salesman he said that this is not a problem, since they have the pro line stuff and that it can be replaced fast and easily and that they had actives from 20 years ago that are working just fine (T+W). We also thought about the Evoke 30 and the first second in that conversation he added "We would choose a great amp for good power.) Somewhere in between I thought about Klipsch as they are about fun, but then the Heresy and Forte would be overkill.

The problem: As stated above I need to listen. But because of bad audio memory I would have to listen in comparison to other components. Also my room will be different to the stores rooms. Then I´d need 50k, 2 years sabbatical and very generous return policies. So impractical.

Questions part:

1) Can I EQ Studio monitors like the Genelex 8330 that they are less revealing and more forgiving? Is it an EQ parameter thing or is it the technicality of the speakers?

2) If I pair e.g. Dynaudio Evoke 20s with a Yamaha A-S701 or a Hegel H95 is there a big difference? Isn´t watts watts, current current and lack of distortion lack of distortion? I am not searching for the holy grail and absolut perfection. I don´t have the time and money to do that.

3) Can I pair DSP with passives? Is EQ enough? I use APO atm. Is it helpful formy particular room?

4) The salesman recommended not to go with a sub in my particular room. Thoughts? The Focus 10 seemed to have quite a rolloff in the bottom although it shouldn´t be the case.

5) Any advice would be helpful as of today I´d say I listen on my 80 bucks Pioneer till the end of time Thanks in advance for all help hints advice.

Zwuckel

First rule of thumb, remember that music enjoyment does not lend itself to data analytics. Do not use charts and graphs to make the decision. Most, if not all the of them, have not followed the minimum ANSI standard for audio testing and are anything but scientific. They are not in themselves reliable. It's the age old fallacy of precision bias. Best advice is to keep looking until you find something you like. Keep it affordable.