Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

[excelsius]

Use actual measurements as they lied big time.
View attachment 274558
Those are done at 1 m so it's also easier to do calculations with them.
I left this conversation as no one whose realistic, especially you.
If you cut down distance by placing speakers 3m from listening spot optimising both speaker placement and listening position we might be able to get somewhere. Regarding dogs problem I did some thinking and came to flexible arm wall stands such were used for old CRT TV sets (stil used for projectors and such) with arm length of at least 50 cm. If you use those on a side walls and place speakers on them that solves the problem.
Now I (we) need to see the actual room (pictures and favorably diagram).
Future more no one of us can really give you guarantees that even when you lower the load on speakers/monitors woffer by high pass they tweeters will survive on the long run with very high SPL.
As usual everyone chose deliberately to ignore sync clock issues when using different cristal clock oscillators on different DAC's and additional ADC - DSP - DAC delay which you will have using higher end monitors/sub's that use such embedded path.
If you lower the distance and chose to lower the SPL expectations you might get to where you want including amplifiers that have equal loudness normalisation (Yamahas mostly this day's) with pasive speakers and dumb powered subwoofer's (without their own DSP and not doing analog - digital conversation). You did get to a conclusion that you will need central DSP procesor with a single DAC (and ADC). And if so than I can guarantee you it will work for a long time.

Do you have a link to those specs, by any chance? If the SPL at 1m is 98.2 dB (I'm assuming the Lpk is not what's used when discussing sensitivity), then with a 145 W internal amp, this means the calculated sensitivity for KH-150 would be 76.6 dB, which is very low (compare to 86 dB for the DBR 62). I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly here.
Also would be curious if you could elaborate on tweeters being damaged.

And I guess the real question here is do you have a suggestion for another active monitor that is a better choice than the KH-150 (under $3k for a pair)? I understand the system you proposed is a good alternative, but right now I don't want to deal with amps/DSPs and want a simple setup with active speakers. Yes, do understand that integrating non-Neumann amp later on is going to be am issue, so that's one drawback with Neumann, unless I pay for their expensive subs,

 

[excelsius]

Clearly everyone missed my moment of madness when I said based on the specs that they would be loud enough - on the floor!

However, your quoted measurements don’t look any worse in practice and suggest tbe speakers may peak higher in real world use than the “lie” you accuse the company of. If we take the levels noted when @excelsius listened in store rather than the initial request, the quoted spec appears good enough, but with subs.

The suggestion in Amir’s review here that they are subjectively warm raises another concern though given that the B&W speakers were preferred in store. However, tbe tweeter appears to be distortion free at high volume which has me wondering about your comment re tweeter life.

What usage levels do you think will actually shorten tweeter life? @excelsius has explained that most usage will be at much lower level for background listening. We’re talking occasional peaks at the speakers’ limits. Would an hour every day played loud do damage? An hour every couple of days? Do you have evidence of Neumann or Genelec tweeters failing prematurely? Why would a tweeter in an active speaker be more likely to fail than in an equivalent passive speaker, or are you making a general point with that comment?

I’m not sure that the KH 150 is tbe right answer here and would suggest purchasing from a company that he can return them to if they don’t work. If tweeter life is an issue though that won’t show up in a few days’ use.

Curious about twitter life as well here. No point in spending thousands on a speaker if it's going to give out. And agreed, high volume is occasional, like a few hours a week, if even that.

Local is not an option. I've already found what I could. All local stereo shops pretty much sell passive speakers exclusively, on top of few brand choices.

 

[Galliardist]

Strange measurement given that floor reflections are considered not good and that's why rugs are used.

It was a poor attempt at humour given that the specifications given are ones normally used only for subwoofers.

 

[excelsius]

You cannot really just plug things together and call them integrated. (And, how do you endeavor to connect that sub to the KH-150? It has no analog thru nor out, according to the manual.)

In addition to crossover matching, you have to account for differences in the time domain. Active DSP speakers have some number of ms latency due to time needed for conversion and processing. Subs do too. Do they match? IIRC, in a domestic environment, 1ms = ~1' distance. If your sub has 3ms latency and your speakers have 11ms, it will sound like your sub is 7' closer to you than the speakers. <-- totally made up numbers thataway

To do this right, you need DSP and a DAC with at least 4 output channels. In the DSP, you need to set crossover points and slopes for the speakers and sub, then time align them. It is not a trivial process, which is why most people just use an AVR for bass management and let the software do it for them. This is partly why I included Dirac in all of my recommendations to you.

You also REALLY want DRC in the bass frequencies for classical music. Without it, entire instruments disappear into room cancellations.

So it answers the question then. If I want to add a sub to Neumann, I either have to spend more than the speakers themselves for a pair of subs or still spend over $2000 to add a different sub with miniDSP SHD and with all the issues it comes with. In terms of future upgrades, both are bad options. This is certainly an issue going with Neumann now. Genelec seems to have cheaper options for a sub available...

 

[excelsius]

It was a poor attempt at humour given that the specifications given are ones normally used only for subwoofers.

Maybe a poor choice of specs on their end?

 

[ZolaIII]

@excelsius yes it's a same review which whose already pined cuple of times hire.

Neumann KH 150 2-Wege Nearfield-Monitor im Test

Die in den letzten Jahren erschienenen Monitor-Modelle der KH-Serie von Neumann aus Berlin sind mit moderner DSP-Technik ausgestattet, ebenso der unlängst vorgestellte KH 150, der sich zwischen dem KH 120 und KH 310 einordnet. Von der Leistungsfähigkeit her ist der KH 150 dabei näher zum KH 310...

www.soundandrecording.de

This evening I whose in a friend's double garage. It's split with a wall and open passage. We ware in bigger part which is roughly 5.5 x 3.5 m and 2.8 high. We played music on his old chap and abused for year's Logitech 2.1 PC system. It whose loud on a bit more than one meter, too loud for me so I pulled out my phone and measured dB level. It whose 83 dB average and peak about 88. Then I moved away to about 4 m and it definitely whosent - 12 dB, it whose about - 5~6 dB.
You neither need that much dB nor such SPL. What's more you can get all there is in the recording regarding DR on moderate leave of mid 70 dB with equal loudness normalisation. Many people hire tested the SINAD of their amplifiers and ended up on about that level.

 

[JustJones]

I don't think I've seen this speaker mentioned so far. Sorry if it's a repeat. Little over your budget but something else to consider.

Buchardt A500 Powered Bookshelf Speaker Review (by Erin)

Thanks for another speaker review @hardisj Link to review: https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/buchardt_a500/ Price is approximately €3500 for the speaker pair (as of this writing). With the Platin Hub the cost is €3800. Erin's conclusion: See video linked above for...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[levimax]

Curious about twitter life as well here. No point in spending thousands on a speaker if it's going to give out.

Not sure how this got started but any of the high end active speakers have very sophisticated protection circuitry built in. It would be more or less impossible to damage them playing music even if you tried.

 

[Newman]

As usual everyone chose deliberately to ignore sync clock issues when using different cristal clock oscillators on different DAC's and additional ADC - DSP - DAC delay which you will have using higher end monitors/sub's that use such embedded path.
…with pasive speakers and dumb powered subwoofer's (without their own DSP and not doing analog - digital conversation).

We “chose deliberately to ignore” because it has been covered in previous threads and it is not an issue. The real-life delays of internal subwoofer ADA processes only represent a few degrees of phase at sub frequencies, not nearly enough to cause an audible change in the FR.

Suggest you stop bringing up a non-issue like it is The Big Issue, and especially stop implying that people are ‘turning a blind eye’. Not so.

 

[Galliardist]

Curious about twitter life as well here. No point in spending thousands on a speaker if it's going to give out. And agreed, high volume is occasional, like a few hours a week, if even that.

Local is not an option. I've already found what I could. All local stereo shops pretty much sell passive speakers exclusively, on top of few brand choices.

He’s actually talking about sudden failure at above the maximum power the tweeter can take. That applies to any of them. If you pay more, you can get speakers that can take more punishment. The warning applies equally to any loudspeaker though. A Google search doesn’t show lots of Neumann tweeters blowing, but that only indicates that they don’t fail in normal use.

Local is not necessary for return. Ask if you can return them within 30 days when purchasing: check when the clock starts, what the return address is, and if there is a restocking fee.

Passive need not be more complex than active, as I said before. Some amps act as a Roon endpoint and have EQ, though they would push your budget to the same degree as the Neumann subwoofers. At most it's one extra box and one fewer power points needed. It does sound like active better meets your needs as re-determined through the thread.

 

[Galliardist]

@excelsius yes it's a same review which whose already pined cuple of times hire.

Neumann KH 150 2-Wege Nearfield-Monitor im Test

Die in den letzten Jahren erschienenen Monitor-Modelle der KH-Serie von Neumann aus Berlin sind mit moderner DSP-Technik ausgestattet, ebenso der unlängst vorgestellte KH 150, der sich zwischen dem KH 120 und KH 310 einordnet. Von der Leistungsfähigkeit her ist der KH 150 dabei näher zum KH 310...

www.soundandrecording.de

This evening I whose in a friend's double garage. It's split with a wall and open passage. We ware in bigger part which is roughly 5.5 x 3.5 m and 2.8 high. We played music on his old chap and abused for year's Logitech 2.1 PC system. It whose loud on a bit more than one meter, too loud for me so I pulled out my phone and measured dB level. It whose 83 dB average and peak about 88. Then I moved away to about 4 m and it definitely whosent - 12 dB, it whose about - 5~6 dB.
You neither need that much dB nor such SPL. What's more you can get all there is in the recording regarding DR on moderate leave of mid 70 dB with equal loudness normalisation. Many people hire tested the SINAD of their amplifiers and ended up on about that level.

I think that we have determined that the high listening level is going to be around 80dB rather than 70, from the store visit. The actual drop at 4m depends on the room, doesn't it? Also the final preference between direct and reflected sound, which is also determined by what can be done to the room and individual choice, will affect the total SPL.

Your figures are 83db average and 88 peak at one point - that does not suggest the dynamic range we would expect from classical orchestral recordings. We're still potentially borderline on peaks. I suspect the only way to find out is to get the chosen loudspeakers into the room and check the peaks.

I still recommend sitting closer to the speakers for the loud/attentive listening sessions though. I would say the same if we were completely safe with the 4m distance.

 

[Galliardist]

Not sure how this got started but any of the high end active speakers have very sophisticated protection circuitry built in. It would be more or less impossible to damage them playing music even if you tried.

Having your speakers regularly shut down or not hit the peaks would still be as annoying though.

 

[ZolaIII]

We “chose deliberately to ignore” because it has been covered in previous threads and it is not an issue. The real-life delays of internal subwoofer ADA processes only represent a few degrees of phase at sub frequencies, not nearly enough to cause an audible change in the FR.

Suggest you stop bringing up a non-issue like it is The Big Issue, and especially stop implying that people are ‘turning a blind eye’. Not so.

It's not a 1~1.5 ms if it has an actual workload which they do. If it gets to 10 ms it's audible alright.

 

[excelsius]

I think that we have determined that the high listening level is going to be around 80dB rather than 70, from the store visit. The actual drop at 4m depends on the room, doesn't it? Also the final preference between direct and reflected sound, which is also determined by what can be done to the room and individual choice, will affect the total SPL.

Your figures are 83db average and 88 peak at one point - that does not suggest the dynamic range we would expect from classical orchestral recordings. We're still potentially borderline on peaks. I suspect the only way to find out is to get the chosen loudspeakers into the room and check the peaks.

I still recommend sitting closer to the speakers for the loud/attentive listening sessions though. I would say the same if we were completely safe with the 4m distance.

Yes, at the store, I was also measuring mostly under 90 dB, with the peak at under 95 dB. That's without pushing it much higher. The room was a bit smaller than mine, but it was acoustically treated. Also, as mentioned, moving farther away from the source to 4 meters and side to side did not decrease the dB or the perception of loudness much. If those B&W bookshelves could produce so much sound, I would expect much more from the KH-150. That's the assurance I suppose.But yes, I understand that it can end up being quite different in my room due to larger size and acoustics. I will post a diagram at some point. I'm assuming that should be a different thread in this sub.

And I am not sure really how accurate the smartphone SPL measurements are without calibration. It certainly would be nice if Amir and other testers regularly added sensitivity measurements as part of the reviews. Altough I saw a screenshot posted above, it did not appear to be part of Amir's main review.

 

[excelsius]

Alright, I think after 21 pages and 400+ comments, we're probably reaching diminishing returns on the discussions. I've been becoming too obsessed with this myself now for about a week, but I think it was necessary to be able to move on. I could say this was all an audiophile psych experiment at this point…





but no, I did just order the KH-150 from Thomann and included MA-1 since it was much cheaper ($180) than elsewhere if I wanted to buy that separately later. I also talked to them about including the adjustable stands for free I had linked before. The total came to almost exactly $3K.

I will have to take this as is for now and short of spectacular shortcomings in output, I doubt I'm going to have an issue (but we'll see, there is a 30 day return period). I’ll order the WiiM Pro, two coax cables (I’m assuming speakers don’t include any) and should be good to go.

It was a hard/unclear decision between the KH-150 and Genelec 8340A (or even 8350A, which could still be within budget), but I went with the KH-150 based on the discussion here. Although the choice might as well be random since I don’t have all the information to compare to Genelec.

I will post updates once I get the speakers. Meanwhile, I guess I need to figure out the user manual, speaker placement, WiiM setup, etc. And during those 30 days, I’ll do my best to stress test the speakers. I think they have a light system when the speaker is pushed too hard, which is great. I still don’t fully understand why would a properly designed integrated amp be able to blow the components if the integrated power is capped to match the component ratings.

 

[Chaconne]

I just want to applaud your methodology, excelsius. So many of us in this pursuit make rushed or emotional decisions (including me!), that it's refreshing to see such a deliberative, well-informed choice. I hope it turns out spectacularly for you. Be sure to let us know how things turn out.

 

[excelsius]

I just want to applaud your methodology, excelsius. So many of us in this pursuit make rushed or emotional decisions (including me!), that it's refreshing to see such a deliberative, well-informed choice. I hope it turns out spectacularly for you. Be sure to let us know how things turn out.

Thank you. And a big thank you to everyone here who patiently tolerated my sometimes uninformed questions. I learned a lot, especially from the disagreeing points of view. As long as we understand this is not personal, it's all good. Members here are really passionate about the music technology, and it shows.

Also a big thank you to @mj30250 who pointed me to Thomann for a much better deal on the KH-150. Without that, I was dismissing these speakers as out of price range since all other sources I saw had them for $800+ more.

 

[mkt]

Just when I thought this thread was cursed. Sensible choice!

 

[fineMen]

Strange measurement given that floor reflections are considered not good and that's why rugs are used.

Another one--floor reflections make themselves noticed in the frequency range of about 400..600Hz. What can a 2..3(??)cm rug do about it? As my own(!) measurements revealed, not too much. So, if people use rugs, it is because of wishful thinking, or, in more contemporary words, cargo cult science.

Does listening to 'classic' prevent you from getting used to do measurements? More into 'culture' than in 'tech'? That would be bad in case of longing for technological excellence, indeed!

 

[Galliardist]

Alright, I think after 21 pages and 400+ comments, we're probably reaching diminishing returns on the discussions. I've been becoming too obsessed with this myself now for about a week, but I think it was necessary to be able to move on. I could say this was all an audiophile psych experiment at this point…





but no, I did just order the KH-150 from Thomann and included MA-1 since it was much cheaper ($180) than elsewhere if I wanted to buy that separately later. I also talked to them about including the adjustable stands for free I had linked before. The total came to almost exactly $3K.

I will have to take this as is for now and short of spectacular shortcomings in output, I doubt I'm going to have an issue (but we'll see, there is a 30 day return period). I’ll order the WiiM Pro, two coax cables (I’m assuming speakers don’t include any) and should be good to go.

It was a hard/unclear decision between the KH-150 and Genelec 8340A (or even 8350A, which could still be within budget), but I went with the KH-150 based on the discussion here. Although the choice might as well be random since I don’t have all the information to compare to Genelec.

I will post updates once I get the speakers. Meanwhile, I guess I need to figure out the user manual, speaker placement, WiiM setup, etc. And during those 30 days, I’ll do my best to stress test the speakers. I think they have a light system when the speaker is pushed too hard, which is great. I still don’t fully understand why would a properly designed integrated amp be able to blow the components if the integrated power is capped to match the component ratings.

Congratulations. It’ll all work out fine.

Even in tbe absolute worst case you bought yourself a great set of speakers for the office!