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Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

OK,can you describe what "large output" means to you?
Or a place that you experience similar levels?


BMR towers paired with a powerfull amp seems like a good option.
Are you sure? I ask because until very recently the BMR's were my leading choices, that is until I read from various sources, they lose there composure at high volume. And I mean quite a few folk said that. I decided on Elac Debut Reference because everyone comments on how loud these play without distress. For 950. one can buy 2 pair, get a used AVR for a couple hundred, stands and still have $$ left over.

Just wondering, are there BlueTooth remote amps for satellites one can broadcast to so as to avoid wires all over?
 
we're going way off topic here. I do a ton of business through Amazon and they've never complained perhaps because we do so much with them. They are probably running cost/benefit metrics on all their customers all the time so if you "become a problem" I'm sure they'll react somehow, but I suspect that bar is pretty high. That story sounds like the person had other problems with Amazon that might have precipitated the reaction - we don't know their history from that one story.

Edit- btw, that person sounds like they got into an argument over "was it delivered or not". That's an argument you're going to lose if the shipper shows it was delivered and the poster was a fool for making that their hill to die on. I pity people that live in insecure neighborhoods and have to live with package thieves. If I lived in an apartment building I'd replace my door with one with one of those giant "postal dropoff" doors like they have for packages at post offices.
I have had three packages MIS-delivered in the past six months - NOT porch pirates, simply delivered to the WRONG ADDRESS despite my street address being prominently displayed on the side of my house.

Each time, Amazon promptly refunded and / or expedited a replacement to be received the next day.

So it's not "foolish" or a hill to die on - it's something that happens and Amazon should make it right.
 
OP, maybe I missed it somewhere, but if the KH150 accepts digital input via SPDIF coax, why would you ditch the Bluesound Node in favor of the WiiM Pro? The only thing 'wrong' with the Node is the subpar DAC, but using digital out of the Node circumvents the Node's DAC and that passed through digital signal was measured to be transparent. If you are used to the Bluesound software and are happy with the UI, you could save $150 for now and stick with it.
The OP has stated that he will use Roon, so there is no need for the Bluesound software in this case.
 
And I am not sure really how accurate the smartphone SPL measurements are without calibration. It certainly would be nice if Amir and other testers regularly added sensitivity measurements as part of the reviews. Altough I saw a screenshot posted above, it did not appear to be part of Amir's main review.
It's a good side point that we all assume these cell phone apps are "not accurate", but how not accurate are they? I may try testing my Pixel 6 phone against my UMIK-1 now that I have acquired the mic, but in the meantime has anyone tested any cell phone microphones to see how far off they are? I assume it's only a couple dB or less for 100-3000 Hz sounds but does anyone have data?
 
Interesting about the 5dB lower figure at home (presumably compared to anechoic space). If you have a citation for that, I'd like to add it to my notes for future reference. Even better, would be curious about how they calculated it so it can be tuned to volumes other than 4K ft^3.

Couple points, per my novice calculations about the bullet point 4:
  • To achieve 117 dB at 13ft (~4m) with a sensitivity of 90 dB (i.e., at 1m) would take 8000W for 1 speaker in open space. I.e., must produce 129 dB at 1m
  • But for two speakers, additive effects drops down to 4000W per speaker (3dB less, i.e., 126 dB at 1m)
  • Still, these values are for open space. To compensate for lack of loss in a closed space, here using the -5dB value you mentioned from THX, this results in 1250W per speaker (121 dB at 1 m)
I think your figure of 2K W per channel is about correct (would be closer to 2500W), but maybe it doesn't take into account the extra sound added by the second speaker, which brings it down to 1250 W/channel. Of course, these are still pretty high values. I still have no idea how does one determine how much power can a certain speaker take before mechanical damage.
Just went trough PA offering and best I could found where 132 dB SPL at 1m short turn max rated 15" / 1.4" compression driver (3.5" diaphragm) monsters with 100 dB rated sensitivity @ 1m/W 8 Ohms and RMS input of 600W 8 Ohms. Those just might (or not) do 121 dB on long run. Of course they won't sound great anyway (probably not even good). So asking of a home speakers or monitors to do that is ridiculous.
Edit: bonus big Neumann's clipping the tweeters (to protect them probably) at 106 dB.
 
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Thing is, that I don't know of anyone who tested the carpet magic by himself. (I ignore myself in this regard.)
Apparently someone did (and you can guess who).
BTW, if you don't have a Nobel prize in your back pocket, using the term "cargo cult science" just doesn't seem to have the same effect.

toole_1.png
 
Apparently someone did (and you can guess who).
BTW, if you don't have a Nobel prize in your back pocket, using the term "cargo cult science" just doesn't seem to have the same effect.

Sure. My discussion point was this:

The quoted side out of Dr. F.Toole's book is not speaking of rugs. To the contray it speaks of an 11mm underlay, which to begin with is exceptionally uncommon in Europe. Additionally the carpet (not equal to 'rug') is spanned from wall to wall, and has furthermore special intrinsic properties.
Second the above given comment (post #401) speaks of reflections which commonly are meant to be early reflections, emphasized here in being those specifically 'from the floor' but Toole addresses the overall reverberation--the carpet could, given the quoted results, without any further ado be placed at any wall.
I was speaking of the specifically affected frequency range, which, again, isn't that well absorbed even with the 'carpet'.

That's what cargo cult science is about, the neglect of the specifics in picking look-alike marks to construct a case. The refusal to validate the speculations keeps it running. I think a Noble isn't needed to reveal such a schema.

Let me quote Toole: " ... but check for acoustical measurememts."

You may respond and I'll read it, but would after rather leave it at that.
 
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By the way, I went through the WiiM Pro manual and it says that when the volume is not set to fixed, the output is not bit-perfect. I'm not sure how critical this is, but it seems to be the trade-off for being able to control the volume with WiiM.

This is true of any digital volume control. IIRC, you lose 1 bit per -6dB attenuation.

 
Let me quote Toole: " ... but check for acoustical measurememts."

You may respond and I'll read it, but would after rather leave it at that.
Dude, you think Toole would take the effort to measure the random incidence absorption coefficients of the carpet, and not the easier task of measuring the room?

Also, see what I quoted you in my previous post. You wrote "carpet magic".

toole_2.png
 
OP, maybe I missed it somewhere, but if the KH150 accepts digital input via SPDIF coax, why would you ditch the Bluesound Node in favor of the WiiM Pro? The only thing 'wrong' with the Node is the subpar DAC, but using digital out of the Node circumvents the Node's DAC and that passed through digital signal was measured to be transparent. If you are used to the Bluesound software and are happy with the UI, you could save $150 for now and stick with it.
I have not used any streamers yet--will be my first entry into this ecosystem so I'm not used to Bluesound or any streamer.

WiiM Pro has a digital out to bypass the DAC as well. The issue here is that WiiM is $160, Bluesound is $600+ and it's just not worth it to me. Now I know Bluesound is chosen because of it's software, but recent reviews state that WiiM's software is not only better, but is constantly being updated, while Bluesound is stagnating. Furthermore, I will likely use Roon (again, no experience yet), which makes, the native software even less relevant. For the price of the Node, one could get WiiM Pro + miniDSP Flex. Unless their software ends up being far superior, I don't see how Bluesound will survive the competition at their price point.

Are you sure? I ask because until very recently the BMR's were my leading choices, that is until I read from various sources, they lose there composure at high volume. And I mean quite a few folk said that. I decided on Elac Debut Reference because everyone comments on how loud these play without distress. For 950. one can buy 2 pair, get a used AVR for a couple hundred, stands and still have $$ left over.

Just wondering, are there BlueTooth remote amps for satellites one can broadcast to so as to avoid wires all over?

Very interesting about the BMR.

WiiM discussed here can transmit sound via bluetooth or WiFi (higher quality with WiFi).
 
It's a good side point that we all assume these cell phone apps are "not accurate", but how not accurate are they? I may try testing my Pixel 6 phone against my UMIK-1 now that I have acquired the mic, but in the meantime has anyone tested any cell phone microphones to see how far off they are? I assume it's only a couple dB or less for 100-3000 Hz sounds but does anyone have data?
I'd be curious to know the result. I was almost considering buying a $20 SPL meter from Amazon. Some of the apps also have the ability to calibrate them. I would think that even if the absolute value is incorrect, the relative value (such as change in dB with distance) should be correct.
 
I'd be curious to know the result. I was almost considering buying a $20 SPL meter from Amazon. Some of the apps also have the ability to calibrate them. I would think that even if the absolute value is incorrect, the relative value (such as change in dB with distance) should be correct.
If you have an iPhone (or iPad), they can be pretty accurate sound level meters.

 
Just went trough PA offering and best I could found where 132 dB SPL at 1m short turn max rated 15" / 1.4" compression driver (3.5" diaphragm) monsters with 100 dB rated sensitivity @ 1m/W 8 Ohms and RMS input of 600W 8 Ohms. Those just might (or not) do 121 dB on long run. Of course they won't sound great anyway (probably not even good). So asking of a home speakers or monitors to do that is ridiculous.
Edit: bonus big Neumann's clipping the tweeters (to protect them probably) at 106 dB.
If I wanted PA speakers, I'd probably go to Costco or Walmart instead of coming to ASR.

Now I understand bookshelf speakers have limits, but at least having bought one of the loudest speakers within my budget, I'll learn if they're loud enough for me. And if they're not, that will be the answer that I'll have to add a sub or two, as you and others mentioned before. And if that's not enough, the next step will be going passive, as you had suggested, but this time with tower speakers. With towers, yes, I would certainly expect them to be loud. It's probably a matter of budget at that point.

By the way, I am somewhat unclear still about how much dB would be added by a sub. You touched on this a bit, but would be great if you could explain some more. Let's use the example of KH-150 and then adding one kh-750 and two kh-750s. Or maybe a theoretical example? If speakers produce 100 dB max, how much more dB would one and two subs add? Would this additional loudness apply to the entire frequency range?
 
Budget shortcut: Dynaudio BM15A classic (no DSP, max SPL 124 dB, about EUR 2300/pair on European marketplaces) and I'd add 2 pcs KALI WS-12 + miniDSP SHD))
Interesting option. Specs say a pair has 124 dB at 1m, which is well over 110 dB at 4m. Doesn't state at what THD, also have to assume the SPL value is for "full space"?
In the US, costs just a little over $3k for two. For future reference, I'd be curious to see if there are THD measurements on this.
 
If I want to use one to replace a seemingly defunct Apple Airport Express, do I need the remote? Usually AirPlay just gets a volume command from the source device.
The remote really isn't needed. Volume can be controlled by the app, and maybe by the source app but I haven't tried that.
 
By the way, I am somewhat unclear still about how much dB would be added by a sub. You touched on this a bit, but would be great if you could explain some more. Let's use the example of KH-150 and then adding one kh-750 and two kh-750s. Or maybe a theoretical example? If speakers produce 100 dB max, how much more dB would one and two subs add? Would this additional loudness apply to the entire frequency range?
Here is measured maximum SPL of KH 150 with maximum 3% THD (red line):

KH150MAX-580x432.png


https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/neumann-kh-150-2-wege-nearfield-monitor-im-test/

Maximum SPL from 800 Hz to 7 kHz is above 110 dB with less than 3% THD, which is impressive for such a small loudspeaker. At 100 Hz it is about SPLmax=103 dB (< 3% THD) and at 50 Hz is about 97 dB (also < 3% THD). With any good sub you will get at least 110 dB (< 3% THD) at and below 100 Hz, but the max SPL above 100 Hz will be the same, because sub has no output above 200 Hz. Overall you will get over 110 dB with less then 3% THD, which is very clean sound.
 
If I wanted PA speakers, I'd probably go to Costco or Walmart instead of coming to ASR.

Now I understand bookshelf speakers have limits, but at least having bought one of the loudest speakers within my budget, I'll learn if they're loud enough for me. And if they're not, that will be the answer that I'll have to add a sub or two, as you and others mentioned before. And if that's not enough, the next step will be going passive, as you had suggested, but this time with tower speakers. With towers, yes, I would certainly expect them to be loud. It's probably a matter of budget at that point.

By the way, I am somewhat unclear still about how much dB would be added by a sub. You touched on this a bit, but would be great if you could explain some more. Let's use the example of KH-150 and then adding one kh-750 and two kh-750s. Or maybe a theoretical example? If speakers produce 100 dB max, how much more dB would one and two subs add? Would this additional loudness apply to the entire frequency range?
If it goes 100 dB full range when cut with subwoofer's at let's say 100 Hz it will be able to go 6~7 dB more keeping distortion under control. Usually there is not much energy in highs in music reproduction (far less than in a white noise signal) so tweeter's won't have to work that hard but it's still a main concern. At least Neumann's have a limiter for it so it will be hard to fry them.
 
SPL apps can be quite variable as far as accuracy. In general the iPhones are better in this regard because the mics are known. Too many different model android phones for these App designers to make them accurate for all Android phones. But many of the apps you can calibrate them to a known reference or use an external mic. For relative measurements like adjusting levels between speaks it doesn't matter if it's accurate or not. But if you're trying to measure the absolute level then you want something with good accuracy.
 
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