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Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

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excelsius

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He wanted to sell you speakers.

I owned B&W 800 series speakers from 2000 through 2021 (804 and 805). You could say I was a fan. The speakers they made back then were accurate and lovely to listen to. Somewhere in the mid 2000s, they switched to their new "house" or "showroom" sound, which is definitely NOT accurate. Their frequency response since then has looked like Batman spreading his "wings". Big bass bump, big treble bump sucked out mids, except for where his head is. Not accurate--designed to stand out in a showroom.

But he did have both Revels and BWs (and other brands). I'm not entirely sure why he'd have a reason to favor BWs since he could have also tried to sell the Revel. In the end, I don't know if he really believed that about BWs or had other reasons, as you mentioned. I guess another downside to going to the store. I'm sure the same thing happened when I did my car audio, after which I decided I'll never invest in a car audio setup again.
You need a spdif/ coax cable. They look like RCA analog cables just make sure you get digital coax. Something like This

You will also need a second digital coax long enough to connect the speakers together.




I wouldn't worry about the DAC in the KH150.
I have no idea if the remote on the WiiM controls volume through its digital out.
Thanks, that link was very helpful. Didn't realize that coax can be digital. Read up some on the differences between toslink and coax as well and it does sound like coax has much more going for it. Also, seems like WiiM does support volume control through digital out, as long as it's not set to fixed, as TimW mentioned for Bluesound.
 

Steve Dallas

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According to Toole the B&W colouration is longstanding.

I think I remember reading that in his book, and I shook my head at that one. It may have been there, but was not enough to be objectionable. They had a some treble peaking above 15KHz, but I cannot hear that high, so I never minded.

If you look at reviews with measurements over time, you will see the exaggerated bass and treble progressively increase over time. There was a marked shift somewhere around 2005(?) in the 800 series. The 700 series, which became the CM series for a while, shifted earlier. (I also owned a pair of 2001 CM4s and did not get along with them because of this.)
 

sejarzo

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This thread shows that many classical production studios from the major labels are indeed using B&Ws...mostly much older B&Ws, many of which were $15k per pair back in 2000-2010. If you search for FR graphs on the various models, there's quite a bit of disparity (and ensuing arguments on old audio forums) as to whether they were bright or balanced.

 

JustJones

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I never thought it mattered much that these studios used B&W , being production studios I would assume/hope they are fairly well treated Acoustically , and a bit of EQ, to get a flat response in the master listening position
 
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excelsius

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  1. What people like most about the Bluesound is the Blue software ecosystem. The device itself is mediocre. If you don't love the ecosystem, there is no reason to choose it.
  2. Might be a good choice, assuming the volume control works with the digital output, which is often not the case. Read the manual before you buy.
    1. You need to plan for how you will connect a sub now, or you will be changing stuff out in the future, which is an inefficient waste of money. Be aware that I and other people have had tremendous problems with ground loops with miniDSP products and have given up on placing them in the middle of the chain.
This raises a concern now. Can you elaborate? Is this issue about miniDSP generally or is it something specific about unbalanced sub to a balanced speaker (+ crossover) that is the issue? Definitely now's the time to plan for this before I buy anything.
  • Neumann did not skimp on the DAC. If it is good enough for professional recording studios, it is good enough for you.
  • You need a digital coax cable. It looks like a single RCA cable, but has the correct properties for digital. I believe you will need one to connect the speakers to each other as well.
  • Interesting...
    1. Again, you should plan for that now. And, you should plan to add 2 subs. One is never enough.
    2. MA-1 may be a bit buggy, but how much does it matter, when DRC is a set-it-and-forget-it endeavor? The Flex is a processor / DAC / preamp only. The SHD is a streamer / processor / DAC / preamp. If you want flexibility to add properly crossed subs and Dirac and have Roon-ready streaming with balanced and unbalanced connections, the SHD is what you should buy up-front and be done with it. You will spend more than the price of the SHD on a piecemeal system and most likely have integration problems along the way. MiniDSP software, if you are talking about the streaming interface, is Volumio, and it is good.
    3. I have a lot of experience with the standmount BMRs and have written lengthy review threads with in-room measurements on this forum. They are GREAT speakers that sound like small towers, because they are small towers. I have never tried to hit the SPL you describe, so I do not know their upper limits in loudness, other than to say they played uncomfortably loud like all my other speakers. I have not heard the Lintons and really want to.
Agreed, it's better to plan for two subs even if I buy one only.
  1. It's not just the bugs with MA-1, but also the cost of KH-750. Plus the ability to use UMIK-1 with other speakers.
  2. I think you're saying that even if I don't need the streamer from SHD, I still have to get that model to handle balanced/unbalanced connections and room calibration + Roon, correct?
  3. If so, are there cheaper options than the $1,400 SHD? That costs more than the speaker.
Great to know that about the BMRs. Would be curious if anyone here has experience with both BMR and Lintons. For my second set of speakers, loudness won't be critical since it will be mostly for the home office, listening during work. But ability for high output would still be nice for flexibility since if I like the sound better, I could swap them into the large room and bring the KH-150s to the office.
 

sejarzo

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I never thought it mattered much that these studios used B&W , being production studios I would assume/hope they are fairly well treated Acoustically , and a bit of EQ, to get a flat response in the master listening position

Some are, but then they appear to mess things up. There are absorbers on the wall of the CSO studio that would clearly damp the first reflection, and then they placed two movable flat screens in front of them.

wivjNbH.jpg


Makes no sense to me.

Link below is directly to post from Floyd Toole regarding B&W in that thread.

Critical comment in it from near the conclusion: "Sadly they make good acoustical design very challenging."

The large midrange starts to beam rather narrowly before transition to the tweeter with very wide dispersion.

 
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Avp1

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I still really liked the Revels too, but thought the BWs sounded brighter. But there are many unknowns with this test: such as I don't know if I still would have liked the BWs better had I listened to Revels first. This was my first high SQ speaker audition, which started with the BWs. I also don't know if long term listening wouldn't result in fatigue. Plus the store room was smaller and acoustically treated compared to mine. This is why given similar price ranges, I'd rather have accurate speakers and worry about the rest later, such as with EQ, if needed.

The owner at the audio store also mentioned that a lot of recording studios actually use BWs (including the Beatles in the past) and he told me that it was the BWs that were more accurate and that's why they sounded crisp. I know that goes against what the users in this forum think. He's been in the business for about three decades.

But of course, I wouldn't mind getting some suggestions on consumer grade, loud, but high SQ speakers, if you or anyone else has specific models in mind.

From B&W I only liked 800/801/802 models. Anything lower was a compromise in one way or another. Also their models underwent major change in transition from D1 to D3, and I cannot say that this was for the better. From memory the most B&W I liked was 800D model.

Also do not forget room treatment. I recall when I first time purchased really high end speakers and brought them into my room. Sound was terrible. It took significant effort in room treatment to make that room usable for music listening.
 

Steve Dallas

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This raises a concern now. Can you elaborate? Is this issue about miniDSP generally or is it something specific about unbalanced sub to a balanced speaker (+ crossover) that is the issue? Definitely now's the time to plan for this before I buy anything.

Agreed, it's better to plan for two subs even if I buy one only.
  1. It's not just the bugs with MA-1, but also the cost of KH-750. Plus the ability to use UMIK-1 with other speakers.
  2. I think you're saying that even if I don't need the streamer from SHD, I still have to get that model to handle balanced/unbalanced connections and room calibration + Roon, correct?
  3. If so, are there cheaper options than the $1,400 SHD? That costs more than the speaker.
Great to know that about the BMRs. Would be curious if anyone here has experience with both BMR and Lintons. For my second set of speakers, loudness won't be critical since it will be mostly for the home office, listening during work. But ability for high output would still be nice for flexibility since if I like the sound better, I could swap them into the large room and bring the KH-150s to the office.

I had an OpenDRC-DI that I used to add Acourate DRC into my signal chain. With balanced or unbalanced connections, it buzzed. I tried all manner of lifting grounds and simplifying the signal chain to no avail. I also had a 2x4HD that gave me similar problems unless it was very happy with the grounding situation. Granted, these devices were in the middle of a somewhat complex signal chain. I have not heard of problems when the device is first in the chain, as a streamer would be.

The SHD is an all-in-one device that gives you everything you need to do just about anything you want--now and in the future. There is not much else on the market as capable as the SHD. Part of the price includes licensing several technologies, including Dirac, which is $325 retail by itself for the stereo version.

If you do not want the streamer part of the SHD, you could use the balanced Flex, but by the time you add all the extras you will need, the price is still >$900 delivered.

There is a less expensive way to accomplish your short-term and long-term goals, but it is more involved. Set up a Silent PC with Dirac Standalone and your choice of music player(s), and plug that into the multichannel balanced DAC of your choice (with volume control). Control it via RDP app on your tablet or laptop. The price is about $200 for the PC plus $325 for the stereo Dirac license. This is what I use in both of my rooms, and it works very well. You can upgrade the Dirac license to add Bass Management when you add subs.

BTW, Dirac is very flexible in that it can run standalone as a virtual audio device on your PC and also run as a plugin inside Roon and other players that support VST.

You will need to optimize the OS for music playback by following one of the guides on the various recording interface web sites, like Focusrite, RME, MOTU, Presonus, etc. Full setup took me about 2 hours last time I did it, and most of that time was spent waiting for Windows Update to do its thing. (I had prior Dirac calibration measurements I could reuse, so the 2 hours did not include Dirac calibration time.)

My signal chain in both rooms is: Silent PC -> Shiit Modius DAC -> Peachtree Nova300 Integrated Amp -> Passive Speakers

My volume control is in the integrated amp. Your volume control will need to be in the DAC, since you want active speakers.

Here is a view of the interface as seen on my tablet in the media room system:

Screenshot_20230321_181727_Microsoft Remote Desktop.jpg


Screenshot_20230320_211641_Microsoft Remote Desktop.jpg
 
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JustJones

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If you're planning on adding non Neumann subs, I agree that the Minidsp SHD would probably be your easiest option. You say that's a possible future upgrade and if you decide to add subs you'll only be out the WiiM pro which you might used in a different setup or could sell.
 

Ellebob

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There are a ton of variables.Any recording studios will often have rooms with inaccurate speakers. Abbey Road Studios in London uses B&W in some rooms but they have more accurate speakers. Let's face it the general public listening to Bluetooth speakers, car systems, soundbars, etc. often do not hear accurate sound. Everybody get there own reference for sound.

There is also our perception of sound. We know at lower volumes we don't hear bass as well and bass boost is preferred for low to mid volume. If you are middle aged or more you have probably have some high frequency loss where one might want to boost the highs. So B&W might be a good choice for some. They are not my cup of tea but I heat more accurate speakers most often and I am bordering 60 and have been very protective of my hearing as I sit here on a plane wearing noise cancelling earbuds or just ear plugs when I tried to sleep earlier.
 

sejarzo

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I also had a 2x4HD that gave me similar problems unless it was very happy with the grounding situation. Granted, these devices were in the middle of a somewhat complex signal chain. I have not heard of problems when the device is first in the chain, as a streamer would be.

I suffered hum and noise with the DDRC-24 through the USB connection to a HP mini PC. No hum or noise when using either a Topping D10 or E30 in that spot, which is as close to the beginning of the chain as I can get (no streamer.)

It was all due to interference from LED light dimmers on another circuit, but another user with the same problem seemed to clear it up only by using a different wall wart. Clearly not a proper design by miniDSP.
 
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excelsius

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Some are, but then they appear to mess things up. There are absorbers on the wall of the CSO studio that would clearly damp the first reflection, and then they placed two movable flat screens in front of them.

wivjNbH.jpg


Makes no sense to me.

Link below is directly to post from Floyd Toole regarding B&W in that thread.

Critical comment in it from near the conclusion: "Sadly they make good acoustical design very challenging."

The large midrange starts to beam rather narrowly before transition to the tweeter with very wide dispersion.

Looked through that thread. The classical studios seem to be using almost exclusively B&Ws, even ones in Germany. This raises some questions for me since I did not look at B&W options at all (other than the random session in the store).
 
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excelsius

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I had an OpenDRC-DI that I used to add Acourate DRC into my signal chain. With balanced or unbalanced connections, it buzzed. I tried all manner of lifting grounds and simplifying the signal chain to no avail. I also had a 2x4HD that gave me similar problems unless it was very happy with the grounding situation. Granted, these devices were in the middle of a somewhat complex signal chain. I have not heard of problems when the device is first in the chain, as a streamer would be.

The SHD is an all-in-one device that gives you everything you need to do just about anything you want--now and in the future. There is not much else on the market as capable as the SHD. Part of the price includes licensing several technologies, including Dirac, which is $325 retail by itself for the stereo version.

If you do not want the streamer part of the SHD, you could use the balanced Flex, but by the time you add all the extras you will need, the price is still >$900 delivered.

There is a less expensive way to accomplish your short-term and long-term goals, but it is more involved. Set up a Silent PC with Dirac Standalone and your choice of music player(s), and plug that into the multichannel balanced DAC of your choice (with volume control). Control it via RDP app on your tablet or laptop. The price is about $200 for the PC plus $325 for the stereo Dirac license. This is what I use in both of my rooms, and it works very well. You can upgrade the Dirac license to add Bass Management when you add subs.

BTW, Dirac is very flexible in that it can run standalone as a virtual audio device on your PC and also run as a plugin inside Roon and other players that support VST.

You will need to optimize the OS for music playback by following one of the guides on the various recording interface web sites, like Focusrite, RME, MOTU, Presonus, etc. Full setup took me about 2 hours last time I did it, and most of that time was spent waiting for Windows Update to do its thing. (I had prior Dirac calibration measurements I could reuse, so the 2 hours did not include Dirac calibration time.)

My signal chain in both rooms is: Silent PC -> Shiit Modius DAC -> Peachtree Nova300 Integrated Amp -> Passive Speakers

My volume control is in the integrated amp. Your volume control will need to be in the DAC, since you want active speakers.

Here is a view of the interface as seen on my tablet in the media room system:

View attachment 274294

View attachment 274299
Yeah, this becomes complicated fast. What if I were to just buy balanced subs instead (non-Neumnann)? Would that help bypass all these setup headaches?
 

Steve Dallas

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Looked through that thread. The classical studios seem to be using almost exclusively B&Ws, even ones in Germany. This raises some questions for me since I did not look at B&W options at all (other than the random session in the store).
The pictured B&Ws are all more than 20 years old. They had different design goals back then. New B&Ws are a mess compared to those made before ~2005. In addition to frequency response deviations, they have significant directivity errors, which makes EQing them challenging. Also, there are partnerships and license agreements in play.

Some are, but then they appear to mess things up. There are absorbers on the wall of the CSO studio that would clearly damp the first reflection, and then they placed two movable flat screens in front of them.

wivjNbH.jpg


Makes no sense to me.

Link below is directly to post from Floyd Toole regarding B&W in that thread.

Critical comment in it from near the conclusion: "Sadly they make good acoustical design very challenging."

The large midrange starts to beam rather narrowly before transition to the tweeter with very wide dispersion.


I never said they did not have significant directivity errors!
 
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TimW

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I own a miniDSP SHD and it's a great tool for integrating subs into a stereo system. This takes quite a bit of work though even with Dirac. I love the versatility of the I/O and only wish it had more output channels. The built in Volumio streamer is crap though and I don't use it. I just turn off that input in settings and ignore it.

I also own a Wiim Pro streamer which is very reliable and enjoyable to use. I can verify that you can control the digital output volume using the remote. The remote is an optional accessory so make sure to order one.

@excelsius you seem to have some confusion about DACs. The KH-150 has a digital crossover that is implemented using a digital signal processor (DSP). No matter what input you use with the KH-150 it will be using its internal DAC after the DSP. If you feed it an analog signal from a DAC it will just convert that signal back to digital with an ADC so that it can do its digital signal processing.

It is true that the Bluesound Node DAC is not great but the same can be said for the Wiim streamers. If you connect these streamers to the KH-150 using a SPDIF digital connection then their DAC is not being used so no need to worry about its quality.
 

cavedriver

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  1. You need to plan for how you will connect a sub now, or you will be changing stuff out in the future, which is an inefficient waste of money. Be aware that I and other people have had tremendous problems with ground loops with miniDSP products and have given up on placing them in the middle of the chain.
Whoah, having just bought a minidsp flex, yes, please elaborate and is there a thread here on ASR discussing? Would like to learn more asap.

Edit: As an aside, I'm also in the camp that current (post-2000) B&W's have an objectionably weird response. Although it's been a long time I remember really liking the old 800 Matrix speakers in the 1990's, but having recently heard the low end of the 800 series I was disappointed. Just like everyone's said, bright, detailed, etc. but that mid-range suck made rock sound hollow and was just such a flaw I could never be happy with them knowing all my music was being misrepresented even if I couldn't pin it down in the middle of some chamber music.
 

Head_Unit

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if you could drive a 5" speaker enough to produce a large soundwave, it should be no different than the one produced by a 10" speaker. But mechanically, the 10" speaker would not have to move as much and also it might be technically difficult to move the 5" speaker to produce a loud enough pressure wave. Is it also correct to say that a large speaker would be more energy efficient then?
Mostly yes. The cone area is squared in the top of the efficiency equation so it is a powerful factor. That's why PA speakers all have big woofers, and why you can't find 5" woofers with truly high sensitivity. One crude way I think about it is the atmosphere is huge, so a bigger cone can "grab it better" than a tiny one. And a cone coupled to the atmosphere through a horn can grab it better. A speaker in a corner "grabs a smaller piece" of atmosphere so at low frequencies gets some boost. Yes, while in theory a 5" moving 4X as far would move as much air as a 10" in practice it is really hard to physically make such a thing...and even if it could physically move far enough, the motion with in that range will be more distorted.
I had read that sealed subs produce more accurate/tighter sound. Was wondering if you had anything you could add about ported vs non-ported subs.
It's complex. The port adds a resonance, which puts out a bunch of bass with little cone motion at the tuning frequency. Usually you get a lot more output for the same power at those lowest frequencies. But if the tuning frequency is too high, the sound becomes boomy, plus below the tuning frequency the port is like a hole. With no enclosure the woofer then unloads and flaps around like crazy. So it's all about the tuning. In theory a sealed box has a purer sound-again depending on the tuning-but in practice the reduced excursion around the port tuning can reduce distortion a lot. The smaller and smaller the box, the harder it is to tune a port of effective size low enough. At the other extreme, big boxes with huge ports can have a peaky resonance(s) in the ports themselves which can color the sound. My personal preference is for "under-tuned" boxes where the port is tuned lower than usual; you get some advantage without much problem.
 

Head_Unit

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I also own a Wiim Pro streamer which is very reliable and enjoyable to use. I can verify that you can control the digital output volume using the remote. The remote is an optional accessory so make sure to order one.
If I want to use one to replace a seemingly defunct Apple Airport Express, do I need the remote? Usually AirPlay just gets a volume command from the source device.
 

fineMen

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This raises a concern now.
What you might want to consider is professional advice, not internet chit-chat. Get in contact with some company that offers service in regard to your needs. It may eat up a third of the budget, but it would be still worth it. A calibration of the eventual set-up is the least. Do you imagine what is needed to take measurements, and interpret them reasonably? In situ I mean, and that is not what this board can possibly deliver.

In case of cost considerations you might want to build up the related competences by your own. But I didn't see any move towards that yet. The case becomes more and more complicated, half of the information flying around, and the only thing to be sure as anything imaginable is that the conversation won't suffice anyway.

Finally you may start out with purchasing a good ol' microphone. Go for it, learn! If you are not tempted to take that path, you end up in either investing in - real - professional advice or being kept in rediculed delusion. :D Don't worry, you'll join the many ...

'Classic' and 'real' ... :facepalm:
 
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Galliardist

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What you might want to consider is professional advice, not internet chit-chat. Get in contact with some company that offers service in regard to your needs. It may eat up a third of the budget, but it would be still worth it. A calibration of the eventual set-up is the least. Do you imagine what is needed to take measurements, and interpret them reasonably? In situ I mean, and that is not what this board can possibly deliver.

In case of cost considerations you might want to build up the related competences by your own. But I didn't see any move towards that yet. The case becomes more and more complicated, half of the information flying around, and the only thing to be sure as anything imaginable is that the conversation won't suffice anyway.

Finally you may start out with purchasing a good ol' microphone. Go for it, learn! If you are not tempted to take that path, you end up in either investing in - real - professional advice or being kept in rediculed delusion. :D Don't worry, you'll join the many ...

'Classic' and 'real' ... :facepalm:
If you do go the professional route, try to get a recommendation or use someone who can demonstrate their work to you.

I say this because I know of two people who had systems set up “professionally” but got terrible results. I only know the end result for one of them, who went to Fair Trading and got compensation, then employed someone competent.
 
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