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Quality speakers for classical music with high output/volume

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excelsius

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Not quite - bassoon will play as intended, with no requirements to be 20 dB louder than the violin.
Don't quite understand this part. If a human is listening to two tones, one at 50Hz and another 500Hz at 80 phones, and perceives these two tones to be equal in loudness, doesn't this mean that the 50Hz tone is 20dB higher than the 500Hz to achieve that equal perception? That's what I thought the FM-curve is saying (for 80 phons).


Yes.
For the bolded part (short story): Yes-ish, sort of.


Big yes.
If my understanding above is incorrect, then why would we have to keep the volume below the highest bass SPL the speaker can produce? This made sense to me based on the point I'm referring to above, but if that point is wrong, then I don't understand this part either.

No!
Use FM curves only for determining how much bass boost you need at lower SPL than "original, normal" SPL.
Recording already have captured the correct balance between bass and mid/highs.
If "normal" SPL captured in recording was 80 phons, when you reproduce it at 80 phons you don't need any bass boost!
If you want to reproduce this recording at 100 dB, you likely will want to reduce bass slightly (nobody is doing that! :)).

The text in red I don't understand. Let's say normal recording is captured at 80 phons where the 50Hz and 500Hz tones are perceived equally. To me, this means the 50Hz waves must have a higher amplitude and thus be at +20db (100dB) to be perceived equally to 500Hz. Now if we try to digitally reproduce it at 100 phons instead of 80 phons, doesn't this mean that the 500Hz is at 100dB and in order to perceive the same loudnss at 100 phons, the 50Hz must be at 110dB+ at this volume?
 

garyrc

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I have the Klipschorn myself I didn't know about this interesting fact! Thanks!!!
You're welcome! The Klipschorn doesn't get enough credit. it is clean as a whistle, has very low IM and THD at high volume (e.g.,105 dB @ 13 feet), and sounds like a live concert.
 

Vladimir Filevski

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Don't quite understand this part. If a human is listening to two tones, one at 50Hz and another 500Hz at 80 phones, and perceives these two tones to be equal in loudness, doesn't this mean that the 50Hz tone is 20dB higher than the 500Hz to achieve that equal perception? That's what I thought the FM-curve is saying (for 80 phons).
It is very simple - every note from musical instruments consists of fundamental (for example 50 Hz) and overtones/harmonics (100, 150, 200, 250, ... 500, 550 Hz) in different proportions! So, that musical instrument may have very weak fundamental (50 Hz) and very loud overtones (500 Hz). That loud overtone may have the same SPL as violin fundamental at 500 Hz, so both instruments are equally loud, in spite of weaker 50 Hz fundamental of the first instrument.

Moral of the story (again :(): Do not use FM curves for anything else than loudness compensation when you are listening at very low SPL!

If my understanding above is incorrect, then why would we have to keep the volume below the highest bass SPL the speaker can produce? This made sense to me based on the point I'm referring to above, but if that point is wrong, then I don't understand this part either.
Yes, we want to keep volume below the highest bass SPL the speaker can produce without distortion (or with small enough distortion).
The "yes-ish" thing before was about your assertion that microphones are similar to a human ear. They are not in the absolute meaning, but recording and mixing engineers can do that magic.

The text in red I don't understand. Let's say normal recording is captured at 80 phons where the 50Hz and 500Hz tones are perceived equally. To me, this means the 50Hz waves must have a higher amplitude and thus be at +20db (100dB) to be perceived equally to 500Hz. Now if we try to digitally reproduce it at 100 phons instead of 80 phons, doesn't this mean that the 500Hz is at 100dB and in order to perceive the same loudnss at 100 phons, the 50Hz must be at 110dB+ at this volume?
Again ( :( ):
It is very simple - every note from musical instruments consists of fundamental (for example 50 Hz) and overtones/harmonics (100, 150, 200, 250, ... 500, 550 Hz) in different proportions! So, that musical instrument may have very weak fundamental (50 Hz) and very loud overtones (500 Hz). That loud overtone may have the same SPL as violin fundamental at 500 Hz, so both instruments are equally loud, in spite of weaker 50 Hz fundamental of the first instrument.

Moral of the story (again :() Do not use or think about FM curves for anything else than loudness compensation when you are listening at very low SPL!
 

rdenney

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It is probably true that very deep content requires more power to be heard less well. But that’s also true of the instruments themselves. A tuba exactly scaled (in the dimensionless ratios) to a trumpet would be unplayable by humans. It would be less dependent on overtones for the final sound, and would have a different timbre, too.

So, if you hear distortion or compression in the deep bass of the KH150’s, you know hat to do.

Rick “who bought bigger speakers” Denney
 
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excelsius

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It is very simple - every note from musical instruments consists of fundamental (for example 50 Hz) and overtones/harmonics (100, 150, 200, 250, ... 500, 550 Hz) in different proportions! So, that musical instrument may have very weak fundamental (50 Hz) and very loud overtones (500 Hz). That loud overtone may have the same SPL as violin fundamental at 500 Hz, so both instruments are equally loud, in spite of weaker 50 Hz fundamental of the first instrument.

Moral of the story (again :(): Do not use FM curves for anything else than loudness compensation when you are listening at very low SPL!


Yes,
we want to keep volume below the highest bass SPL the speaker can produce without distortion (or with small enough distortion).
The "yes-ish" thing before was about your assertion that microphones are similar to a human ear. They are not in the absolute meaning, but recording and mixing engineers can do that magic.


Again ( :( ):
It is very simple - every note from musical instruments consists of fundamental (for example 50 Hz) and overtones/harmonics (100, 150, 200, 250, ... 500, 550 Hz) in different proportions! So, that musical instrument may have very weak fundamental (50 Hz) and very loud overtones (500 Hz). That loud overtone may have the same SPL as violin fundamental at 500 Hz, so both instruments are equally loud, in spite of weaker 50 Hz fundamental of the first instrument.

Moral of the story (again :() Do not use or think about FM curves for anything else than loudness compensation when you are listening at very low SPL!
Thanks. I'll need to read more details on this to get a better understanding.
 

Galliardist

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Thanks. I'll need to read more details on this to get a better understanding.
While dated, the classic “Science and Music” by Sir James Jeans is still a good starting point for this subject.
 

rdenney

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While dated, the classic “Science and Music” by Sir James Jeans is still a good starting point for this subject.
A little easier is Benade’s Horns, Strings, and Harmony.

Rick “but Fletcher and Rossing wrote the definitive text” Denney
 

Galliardist

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A little easier is Benade’s Horns, Strings, and Harmony.

Rick “but Fletcher and Rossing wrote the definitive text” Denney
You've just reminded me I still need a copy of Fletcher and Rossing. And one or more of these books should be on all of our shelves or whatever device we read on these days.
 
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