PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

[Blumlein 88]

Yes. You could say that Paul has been "fact-checked" and came up severely wanting.

And not for the first, second, third, fourth or fifth time. He is fact challenged in general in his marketing spiel.

 

[amirm]

What does it say about post #35?

It is your one random case! I have read tons of reviews of these products, and know people who buy them. Not one, not a single one, has bought it because they had real noise issues. In all cases, they say their system was already fantastic. But when they plugged the Regen, sound stage improved, dynamics improved, veil was removed, etc. Here are the reviews posted by PS Audio:

"Three facets of the sound changed most. First the tightness of the bass was improved, not a lot, but noticeably. Clearly the lower end had a bit more power when the bass drop hit, and it faded away faster, opening up the lower mid-range more and giving the overall sound a better sense of definition and distinction between each instrument or noise in the music. The regenerated electrical signal also increased the openness of the system by tightening up the bass, which also enhanced the dynamic impacts of low frequency hits. This also made the vocal mid-range more open, more focused and more present in the room. It also helped with spacing in the music and the over-all sound stage."

I will spare you the rest of his "improvements."

The second tester went from one AC gen to another:

"No contest! As good as the system had sounded with the P5, with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. "

See? Realism, not removal of audible noise.

The third review is this:

"I know PS Audio is doing things differently, and I had a basic grasp of the technology, but the deep, inky darkness coming from my system was quite unnerving."

So that one experience is not material in who shops for this gear, reviews it and praises it.

Back to noise issue, the reason could be troubleshooted and real fix applied. The world of audio with unbalanced connections is architecturally broken. We are lucky that it works most of the time but in some cases it just loses it. Such problems can be traced and fixed at far less expense than $6K. In addition, there is no proof that this machine fixed OP's problem. Yes he doesn't hear the noise any more. But because the reason was not identified, it could very well come back.

 

[Holmz]

What does it say about post #35?

PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)

You can't make your food taste better by washing the dishes you serve your food in multiple times! I get that washing my dishes multiple times won’t make my food taste better, but if I first plug my oven into a PS Audio Power Plant 12, will it make my food taste better?

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think post #35 was self explanatory…
(In bold)

…
I'm interested in this bit especially. As someone who has suffered from ground loop issues in the past, I still don't understand how to fix them and prevent them despite hours of reading things (things I barely understand, mind you). I'd assume a device like this would help, but is interesting it appears to make it worse.
…

They can be difficult, and I can see someone hoping that there is a magical fix. As the part after the bold states clearly.

My one vexing problem, that presented as a ground loop, took a few hours to fix… and it was not even a ground loop.
We had a work problem that we also thought was a ground loop, which was an intermittent (bad cable) BNC.
So I get it.

 

[PeteL]

It is your one random case! I have read tons of reviews of these products, and know people who buy them. Not one, not a single one, has bought it because they had real noise issues. In all cases, they say their system was already fantastic. But when they plugged the Regen, sound stage improved, dynamics improved, veil was removed, etc. Here are the reviews posted by PS Audio:

"Three facets of the sound changed most. First the tightness of the bass was improved, not a lot, but noticeably. Clearly the lower end had a bit more power when the bass drop hit, and it faded away faster, opening up the lower mid-range more and giving the overall sound a better sense of definition and distinction between each instrument or noise in the music. The regenerated electrical signal also increased the openness of the system by tightening up the bass, which also enhanced the dynamic impacts of low frequency hits. This also made the vocal mid-range more open, more focused and more present in the room. It also helped with spacing in the music and the over-all sound stage."

I will spare you the rest of his "improvements."

The second tester went from one AC gen to another:

"No contest! As good as the system had sounded with the P5, with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. "

See? Realism, not removal of audible noise.

The third review is this:

"I know PS Audio is doing things differently, and I had a basic grasp of the technology, but the deep, inky darkness coming from my system was quite unnerving."

So that one experience is not material in who shops for this gear, reviews it and praises it.

Back to noise issue, the reason could be troubleshooted and real fix applied. The world of audio with unbalanced connections is architecturally broken. We are lucky that it works most of the time but in some cases it just loses it. Such problems can be traced and fixed at far less expense than $6K. In addition, there is no proof that this machine fixed OP's problem. Yes he doesn't hear the noise any more. But because the reason was not identified, it could very well come back.

Sure, but I already said that I agree with all that Amir, you don't have to convince me of that. But that was not my question, my issue is that your review states that it's impossible for this unit to fix that, now this answer says that there is "no proof that this machine fix OP's problem".
Which is it? It can be or it can't?"Not one, not a single one"... Well we have one don't we? This poster already said that he would rather get rid of this unit, but his noise is gone. It was there, he've put a power conditionner, now it's gone, you are saying that it's coincidence? That it was fixed somehow by a different way and that he can now remove the Power conditionner and it won't come back?
Now OK, I am not, and never will say that solutions to a problem like that is to buy a 6000$ Power conditioner, but what you are saying is that no power conditioners can fix audible issues coming for the mains. Me, personally, I have troubleshooted some systems, and in some rare cases, using a ground lift right on the mains is what fixed buzzing sound. My issue is that you state that no audible issues can be coming from the mains, and you states that the fact that a A90 amp is unnafected by the "quality" of power, proves that. All I am saying is that no, it doesn't prove that. So, what is the "real fix (to be) applied" if Power conditioners, as a whole class of products are useless? Because that is what you conclude. I agree that it should be fixed for less, but how?

 

[AudioSceptic]

It is your one random case! I have read tons of reviews of these products, and know people who buy them. Not one, not a single one, has bought it because they had real noise issues. In all cases, they say their system was already fantastic. But when they plugged the Regen, sound stage improved, dynamics improved, veil was removed, etc. Here are the reviews posted by PS Audio:

"Three facets of the sound changed most. First the tightness of the bass was improved, not a lot, but noticeably. Clearly the lower end had a bit more power when the bass drop hit, and it faded away faster, opening up the lower mid-range more and giving the overall sound a better sense of definition and distinction between each instrument or noise in the music. The regenerated electrical signal also increased the openness of the system by tightening up the bass, which also enhanced the dynamic impacts of low frequency hits. This also made the vocal mid-range more open, more focused and more present in the room. It also helped with spacing in the music and the over-all sound stage."

I will spare you the rest of his "improvements."

The second tester went from one AC gen to another:

"No contest! As good as the system had sounded with the P5, with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. "

See? Realism, not removal of audible noise.

The third review is this:

"I know PS Audio is doing things differently, and I had a basic grasp of the technology, but the deep, inky darkness coming from my system was quite unnerving."

So that one experience is not material in who shops for this gear, reviews it and praises it.

Back to noise issue, the reason could be troubleshooted and real fix applied. The world of audio with unbalanced connections is architecturally broken. We are lucky that it works most of the time but in some cases it just loses it. Such problems can be traced and fixed at far less expense than $6K. In addition, there is no proof that this machine fixed OP's problem. Yes he doesn't hear the noise any more. But because the reason was not identified, it could very well come back.

Deep inky darkness coming from my system? I'd be terrified that I'd suddenly found myself in a horror film!

 

[Deleted member 23424]

Deep inky darkness coming from my system?

I bet such a device would cost a few squid.

 

[Shazb0t]

Sure, but I already said that I agree with all that Amir, you don't have to convince me of that. But that was not my question, my issue is that your review states that it's impossible for this unit to fix that, now this answer says that there is "no proof that this machine fix OP's problem".
Which is it? It can be or it can't?"Not one, not a single one"... Well we have one don't we? This poster already said that he would rather get rid of this unit, but his noise is gone. It was there, he've put a power conditionner, now it's gone, you are saying that it's coincidence? That it was fixed somehow by a different way and that he can now remove the Power conditionner and it won't come back?
Now OK, I am not, and never will say that solutions to a problem like that is to buy a 6000$ Power conditioner, but what you are saying is that no power conditioners can fix audible issues coming for the mains. Me, personally, I have troubleshooted some systems, and in some rare cases, using a ground lift right on the mains is what fixed buzzing sound. My issue is that you state that no audible issues can be coming from the mains, and you states that the fact that a A90 amp is unnafected by the "quality" of power, proves that. All I am saying is that no, it doesn't prove that. So, what is the "real fix (to be) applied" if Power conditioners, as a whole class of products are useless? Because that is what you conclude. I agree that it should be fixed for less, but how?

You own one of these don't you?

 

[Triliza]

This thing costs more than the entire audio system many of us have. So even if it did what they advertise it to do, it'd would still be a poor investment for many of us, money that we could use on better speakers (+subs), room correction and treatment. Not doing anything at all with the equipment tested make things even worse, can't see any other choice beside headless panther.

If someone has electrical problems in the house/building, wouldn't it be better to find the root of the problem and try to fix it? True, it may cost much more that this unit costs, but at least it'll fix the problem permanently and for the other electrical appliances on home too. Better to talk to a electrician and see what it can be done if such a problem exist.

In the test Amir used a dac, what do people that are not entirely satisfied with that propose he should use? An amp, a turntable, some particular audio device that may benefit from it? Maybe you should suggest to him what you think he should test products like this one with, so we can all learn something in the end.

 

[PeteL]

You own one of these don't you?

Personally I use this:

Furman M-8x2 Merit Series 8 Outlet Power Conditioner & Surge Protector

Buy Furman M8x2 Merit Series 8 Outlet Power Conditioner & Surge Protector features Rack Mountable.

www.bhphotovideo.com

 

[pkane]

Sure, but I already said that I agree with all that Amir, you don't have to convince me of that. But that was not my question, my issue is that your review states that it's impossible for this unit to fix that, now this answer says that there is "no proof that this machine fix OP's problem".
Which is it? It can be or it can't?"Not one, not a single one"... Well we have one don't we? This poster already said that he would rather get rid of this unit, but his noise is gone. It was there, he've put a power conditionner, now it's gone, you are saying that it's coincidence? That it was fixed somehow by a different way and that he can now remove the Power conditionner and it won't come back?
Now OK, I am not, and never will say that solutions to a problem like that is to buy a 6000$ Power conditioner, but what you are saying is that no power conditioners can fix audible issues coming for the mains. Me, personally, I have troubleshooted some systems, and in some rare cases, using a ground lift right on the mains is what fixed buzzing sound. My issue is that you state that no audible issues can be coming from the mains, and you states that the fact that a A90 amp is unnafected by the "quality" of power, proves that. All I am saying is that no, it doesn't prove that. So, what is the "real fix (to be) applied" if Power conditioners, as a whole class of products are useless? Because that is what you conclude. I agree that it should be fixed for less, but how?

You seem to be making the point that nobody can prove a negative. That's true, but it doesn't mean that we have to accept any unsupported claim anyone can possibly make as legitimate: Russel's Teapot. The burden of proof that these devices do something is on those who claim improved audio performance. There's enough evidence that power regeneration isn't improving output of a DAC, amp, and some other audio devices. A lot of it right here, on ASR. I have one of the earlier PS power regenerators and have tested dozens of DACs, preamps and headamps with it and without it. It doesn't make a difference! Not in measurements, and not in my subjective experience.
(Edit: actually, not completely true: my regenerator appears to add some DC to the AC line which causes one of my DAC power transformers to audibly hum, which is extremely annoying to say the least, if you want my subjective opinion)

 

[PeteL]

You seem to be making the point that nobody can prove a negative. That's true, but it doesn't mean that we have to accept any unsupported claim anyone can possibly make as legitimate: Russel's Teapot. The burden of proof that these devices do something is on those who claim improved audio performance. There's enough evidence that power regeneration isn't improving output of a DAC, amp, and some other audio devices. A lot of it right here, on ASR. I have one of the earlier PS power regenerators and have tested dozens of DACs, preamps and headamps with it and without it. It doesn't make a difference! Not in measurements, and not in my subjective experience.
(Edit: actually, not completely true: my regenerator appears to add some DC to the AC line which causes one of my DAC power transformers to audibly hum, which is extremely annoying to say the least, if you want my subjective opinion)

No, it does not mean we have to accept any unsupported claim. I thought I was clear on that.

 

[pkane]

No, it does not mean we have to accept any unsupported claim. I thought I was clear on that.

My educated guess is that there's no teapot in orbit around the sun, and I can be extremely certain that that's true. Just like I can be very certain that these regenerators don't do what is claimed. When James Webb telescope takes a picture of a teapot in orbit, I'll reconsider. Until then, it doesn't exist.

 

[AudioSceptic]

I bet such a device would cost a few squid.

Doh! Go and sit on the naughty step! ;-)

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

The conclusions say that because multiple vectors point the same way:

1. The design of audio equipment obviates the need for such devices. Instrument grade performance is achieved day in and day out using my raw AC mains.

2. Hugely distorted AC waveform (dimmer) was shown to have no effect on performance of audio equipment, proving #4 below.

3. Across a dozen or so reviews, I have tested a number of audio devices. There is no sign whatsoever that anything is improved in their performance.

4. Knowledge electronic design points to ineffectiveness of such devices.

So no, this is not a random case of "finding a sample" not doing anything. Many samples have been tested over time. And no person or company has shown a single case of effectiveness. Any reasonable person then can arrive at the conclusion I have. Indeed many can do that without all the work that has been done.

In support of amirm‘s post Naim warn people not to use any form of mains regeneration with their equipment. Advising customers to plug them directly into the mains supply.

 

[rebbiputzmaker]

On top of this, none of you have shown your own measurements or proof point to back your claim. You just make arguments as if it is my job to sit here and keep running more tests.

You have not run any tests using Internet porn!

 

[egellings]

A plain old inexpensive (compared to the PS product) isolation transformer might have been able to fix the ground loop problem, too.

 

[LEFASR160]

@amirm
EXCELLENT review, Amir!!! THANK YOU. This is GOOD SCIENCE !!! I'm really glad you were extremely thorough and you looked at power supply output for linear and Swich mode power supplies.

Incidentally, the P12 that I purchased from the manufacturer was sold to someone online. I never even opened the box !!! haha....as you may recall, the first P12 I received was defective so I sent it back and asked for a replacement but my intent was to sell it even before your review above posted here, based on your previous review of the P300 and power regenerators in general. My intent was to give the manufacturer the broken PowerPlant Premier that I had for many years and that was acting nothing more than as a glorified power strip and get some decent money for it in the form of a discount off a new P12, which I did (much more than I could have done by selling it for scrap or parts). And it's difficult to sell something that is broken, but the manufacturer was happy to hugely discount a new P12 for a trade in of the older broken PP Premier which I assume they will recycle for parts ....

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

I think post #35 was self explanatory…
(In bold)



They can be difficult, and I can see someone hoping that there is a magical fix. As the part after the bold states clearly.

My one vexing problem, that presented as a ground loop, took a few hours to fix… and it was not even a ground loop.
We had a work problem that we also thought was a ground loop, which was an intermittent (bad cable) BNC.
So I get it.

I'm not what I have is a ground loop, but I'm not sure it isn't either. I know magic doesn't exist and I know marketing speak when I see it, so I didn't believe any of PS Audio's fancy descriptions of what I could get out of my system with the P12, but I thought maybe AC noise is my problem. My problem went away with the P12 so I'm happy. Did the P12 "fix" the problem? I don't know, I believe you cannot claim to fix a problem without understand what the problem was, and I don't.

So, do I recommend buying a P12? No, unless you're already in the market and know why you're buying it.

 

[LEFASR160]

@pinpoint_oxford Why would anyone want to buy a P12 under any circumstance, based on the testing that shows that it is totally not useful ?

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

@pinpoint_oxford Why would anyone want to buy a P12 under any circumstance, based on the testing that shows that it is totally not useful ?

It's not totally useful for what Amir tested it for. That isn't to say it has no utility whatsoever.