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Parks Audio Waxwing measurements

Did you measure the spectrum of music captured from a LP without RIAA correction applied? I would guess it is more flat than what is discussed here. The high frequencies and very low frequencies will probably be lower in level than the average level.
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I had promised to revisit my overload measurement. I have now done that.

I verified that gain affects ADC and DAC levels, and that volume only affects DAC levels. So I took REW THD vs level plots, flat into the Waxwing, 40dB gain except as noted, with volume at -35dB to isolate the ADC and avoid DAC clipping at all input frequencies (the playback RIAA obviously boost bass so you have to back the volume off at least 20dB).

Sampling was at 96kHz, so the 16 KHz and 20 kHz measurements are only recording the second harmonic for THD.

THD vs level.jpg

As you can see, pretty consistent with frequency. 27mV (at 40dB gain) gives -55dB THD at worst. Accepting 40dB THD gives >50mV. Relatively gentle overload.

As expected, reducing gain will increase the headroom. ~56dB THD for 36dB gain at 1kHz gives 45mV.

Note that in the Waxwing app, the 60dB THD level equates to a peak ADC monitoring level of about -6dB. So if you keep the level below that, and the DAC from clipping, I think things will be OK.
 
for memory multitone de pkane propose riaa curve ( and w&f) and useful in sweep ;-)
 
I would expect THD going down with higher level, until clipping starts...

So, I do not understand how this new headroom measurement corresponds to the graphs Amir is usually presenting in his reviews, see here for the Puffin which should be very similar to the Waxwing:

 
As you can see, pretty consistent with frequency. 27mV (at 40dB gain) gives -55dB THD at worst. Accepting 40dB THD gives >50mV. Relatively gentle overload.

As expected, reducing gain will increase the headroom. ~56dB THD for 36dB gain at 1kHz gives 45mV.

The overload performance of this waxwing is simply dreadful and the THD is poor for a phono stage.

Here's 14 random MM phono stages I measured. Some in preamplifiers, some in integrated amps.

The absolute worst was 32mV@1kHz and that was a phono preamp stage from a cheap plastic AT-PL50 turntable running on a 5V supply... The best, 340mV with a THD of -118dB@5mV.

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Gains:
1724484486814.png
 
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I would expect THD going down with higher level, until clipping starts...

So, I do not understand how this new headroom measurement corresponds to the graphs Amir is usually presenting in his reviews, see here for the Puffin which should be very similar to the Waxwing:

Amir's are thd+n, mine was thd only.
 
The overload performance of this waxwing is simply dreadful and the THD is poor for a phono stage.

Here's 14 random MM phono stages I measured. Some in preamplifiers, some in integrated amps.

The absolute worst was 32mV@1kHz and that was a phono preamp stage from a cheap plastic AT-PL50 turntable running on a 5V supply... The best, 340mV with a THD of -118dB@5mV.

View attachment 388280

Gains:
View attachment 388281
Agreed, that in absolute terms the overload is poor, but as you can monitor both the ADC and DAC levels live, you can reduce the gain to get whatever headroom you want. THD acceptable for phono imo, given typical carts 40dB at best.
 
THD acceptable for phono

I guess if you decide to limit the phono stage's performance to the potential of a typical vinyl record, sure.

But that didn't stop phono stage designers of the past. They had THD numbers well below what compact disc could offer. And D/A converter engineers of today are pushing for numbers no musical content can exploit and plenty of audio analyzers have trouble measuring.

I don't believe in setting the bar so low, anyone can jump it and everybody gets a participation award.

BTW, appreciate your investigations and review of this device. :)
 
Thomas_A and I showed measurements in this thread with approx. --60dB THD@1kHz.

I would not like the phono pre limiting the THD of my cartridge, would expect a better performance.

Edit: don't know how THD of the cartridge rises with level though...
 
Thomas_A and I showed measurements in this thread with approx. --60dB THD@1kHz.

I would not like the phono pre limiting the THD of my cartridge, would expect a better performance.

Edit: don't know how THD of the cartridge rises with level though...
Agreed. It would be interesting to know the level of those measurements. I've never measured a cart that good! Maybe almost 50dB with a typical test record tone. I'll have to try again now I have a CA TRS-1007 test record.
 
I cannot hear , see or measure anything resembling overload problems on my Parks Audio Puffin at MM gain 40 and MC (0.35mv) at 61.. ( sweeps, test record track or music show no clipping when recording digitally extreme vinyl level in the worst test track requires lowering gain by 7db). I have checked a see that the clipping detector on Puffing works correctly. -Any signal peak above 2.11volt out gets a clipping flag- ..
And it is dead quiet, hard to tell if my Hifi is on or not at full volume and ear 1” from the speaker cone.

So I suspect this overload concern is something that shows up in technical test situations ( I do not doubt Amirms test plots) , but the significance in my real life system is not there really.
Technically I struggle to see the benefit of sending a 10V signal from RIAA with massive overload capability to an amplifier that gives rated output at 0.3volt and clips at 2V….

The noise level out of my Puffin is -84db or less relative to 2.11 volt at 61db gain with MC cart on. Few records has a vinyl noise better than -50, the lowest I have on a mint test record is -60. So any RIAA better than -80 for MC is good enough for a good listening experience I think, I do not like to hear any hiss or rush or grunge when the stylus is off the record . In my system a hav an an extra 10db gainin preamp to level with the CD input giving a total MC gain of 70db, and it is dead silent(1”from speaker cone) on any listening level. Noise performance is not a problem in my system .

IMG_4705.jpeg


I am writing this just to let people know that what could appear as a problem really is not, Maybe Parks did something smart in the implementation..
 
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I used this record. 1kHz signal from track 9, unfortunately no information regarding velocity...

New Signals And Recordings To Test And Adjust Vinyl Equipmen https://amzn.eu/d/6Afvjem
 
I cannot hear , see or measure anything resembling overload problems on my Parks Audio Puffin at MM gain 40 and MC (0.35mv) at 61.. ( sweeps, test record track or music show no clipping when recording digitally extreme vinyl level in the worst test track requires lowering gain by 7db). I have checked a see that the clipping detector on Puffing works correctly. -Any signal peak above 2.11volt out gets a clipping flag- ..
And it is dead quiet, hard to tell if my Hifi is on or not at full volume and ear 1” from the speaker cone.

So I suspect this overload concern is something that shows up in technical test situations ( I do not doubt Amirms test plots) , but the significance in my real life system is not there really.
Technically I struggle to see the benefit of sending a 10V signal from RIAA with massive overload capability to an amplifier that gives rated output at 0.3volt and clips at 2V….

The noise level out of my Puffin is -84db or less relative to 2.11 volt at 61db gain with MC cart on. Few records has a vinyl noise better than -50, the lowest I have on a mint test record is -60. So any RIAA better than -80 for MC is good enough for a good listening experience I think, I do not like to hear any hiss or rush or grunge when the stylus is off the record . In my system a hav an an extra 10db gainin preamp to level with the CD input giving a total MC gain of 70db, and it is dead silent(1”from speaker cone) on any listening level. Noise performance is not a problem in my system .

View attachment 388288

I am writing this just to let people know that what could appear as a problem really is not, Maybe Parks did something smart in the implementation..
The issue might be distortion (THD), not noise.

Edit: Amir's review of the Puffin indeed shows noticeable distortion. This is concerning.
 
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The issue might be distortion (THD), not noise.

Edit: Amir's review of the Puffin indeed shows noticeable distortion. This is concerning.
I have had exactly 2 phono preamps without any 60 hertz hum I could hear at the speakers. Waxwing is one and the other is the iFi Zen. The “real world” perception of issues has more to do with “hum” and the Waxwing does not hum. It does everything else well enough that I seriously doubt with blind testing that you would be able to tell the difference with a better measuring phono stage. The digital version of this discussion is arguably comparing the best SINAD DAC with another DAC not nearly as good - from a SOTA perspective. Doubtful, anyone can reliably pick the better measuring one blindy.

I think you should try one and compare to your Pro-Ject phono box and see for yourself. You may be quite surprised.
 
The ProJect DS3 B has absolutely no hum when using the balanced connection to the cartridge. It has no relevant distortion per Amir's review as well. However, there is noticeable noise and frequency dependent headroom.

I am currently using my RME UFX II mic preamp and PC based RIAA equalization and LF X-feed - similar approach as in the Waxwing, just much more complicated ;-) - and am very happy with the sound quality. I notice a considerably better (subjective) sound quality and immunity to clicks and pops.
 
The ProJect DS3 B has absolutely no hum when using the balanced connection to the cartridge. It has no relevant distortion per Amir's review as well. However, there is noticeable noise and frequency dependent headroom.

I am currently using my RME UFX II mic preamp and PC based RIAA equalization and LF X-feed - similar approach as in the Waxwing, just much more complicated ;-) - and am very happy with the sound quality. I notice a considerably better (subjective) sound quality and immunity to clicks and pops.
I can see the additional complications of your setup. Someone wanting a “turnkey” solution, I would predict would be quite happy with the Waxwing.
 
You are absolutely right. Indeed I was considering the Waxwing myself, just to make life easier. Now I am not convinced any more.
 
The issue might be distortion (THD), not noise.

Edit: Amir's review of the Puffin indeed shows noticeable distortion. This is concerning.
Noticable distorion? I am not sure you are aware that distortion has to be 10-100 times larger than Amirm Puffin measurements to be audible. 0.2% is about the lowest that can be detected by human ears and the vinyl medium itself has a distortion between 0.2 and 15%. If you are listening to vinyl you have 2% distortion or more most of the time..
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This is a test track at 0db vinyl reference level, the second order harmonic from the vinyl recording is 0.8%, the contribution from Puffin at 0.02% is surely insignificant.


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And here is a frequency test record sweep, the distortion is mostly 0.3% or more. even at low mastering recording level. If the RIAA has 0.0000 or 0.02% distortion is not a concern, The Puffin distortion is below the bottom of the scale... -72. db. No reason to be concerned

1724514543696.png


The above is a very good test record with the best stylus normal money can buy (Microline Boron), Vinyl does not get better than this
 
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You are probably right that the distortion performance is "good enough" for the medium. In absolute terms, and compared to contemporary ADC's, however, it is not very "sexy" from an engineering standpoint.

In the end this device might be one of the compromises one has to accept, as the huge functionality may outweigh the mediocre technical spec.
 
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