Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[dlaloum]

OK I should check before I shoot my mouth off!! that RP600M is NOT an easy speaker to drive - it drops to 3 ohm in the woofer crossover zone...

On the other hand here is the impedance chart for the RP800F (floorstander):

This is what I was expecting to see - sure there are ups and downs, but it bottoms out at just over 5ohm .... not too bad especially given that the speaker is high efficiency (98db SPL/wm )

Whereas the RP600M bookshelf speaker - from the same series... bottoms out at 3 ohm... which may indeed cause issues. When I say issues, my own Gallo speakers have around 3 ohm at the same point ... woofer crossover - my experience was that the amp in my Integra DRX 3.4 (siblink of the Onkyo NR7100) started to sound confused - the soundstage collapsed, and detail was hard to discern .... - when I used the Pre-Out into amps more suited to a difficult speaker - it cleaned right up and sounded the way it should... - so it didn't go into protection mode as per the testing that Amir did, but it certainly did not sound its best!

Clearly it pays to investigate the actual detail specifications of the speakers you are planning on getting!

To make things more difficult - these types of charts are seldom publicised by the speaker manufacturer - you usually find them in technical review articles... and of course not all modes are reviewed.

The chart I posted here is from: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/klipsch-rp-8000f

Additionally - surround and height speakers are usually less demanding than the mains... so I run the F/C/R on external amps, and the other speakers from the AVR - taking the main load off the amp, leaves a lot more current to drive the rest of the speakers - which it seems to do just fine!

 

[dlaloum]

Here is another hard to drive recent Klipsch speaker R-41M

Down to 2 ohm in the bass - this will drive most amps into their "trouble zone"! - you would want something with serious current capability.

Looks like quite a few of this Klipsch series would be more demanding than I thought...

 

[hmt]

One not to be taken here: the Speakers sensitivity will be nowhere near 98 db 1w 1m when measured correctly.

 

[Pdalton]

Wow! Thanks for all the detailed info!

However, seeing all the model-specific references makes me think I should identify the specific Klipsch's I'm using:

Front L&R - RP-8000F x 2
Center - RP450C
Rear Surrounds - R5800-WII x 2 (in-wall)
Atmos - CDT-5800-CII x 4 (in-ceiling)

Does that make any difference?

Also, I noticed dialoum's comment about using external amps for the Front LCR units. How necessary might that really be? Adding additional amps wasn't "in my plan" at all, but & - if needed - might have to wait a bit until I finish financially "digesting" a while.

 

[Pdalton]

Oops! Forgot to mention the R12SW sub, but maybe it doesn't matter much for this as it's self-powered.

 

[starfly]

Oops! Forgot to mention the R12SW sub, but maybe it doesn't matter much for this as it's self-powered.

Yes, a sub won't matter as those have their own built-in amps (which you'd hope are well matched to the driver )

 

[dlaloum]

Wow! Thanks for all the detailed info!

However, seeing all the model-specific references makes me think I should identify the specific Klipsch's I'm using:

Front L&R - RP-8000F x 2
Center - RP450C
Rear Surrounds - R5800-WII x 2 (in-wall)
Atmos - CDT-5800-CII x 4 (in-ceiling)

Does that make any difference?

Also, I noticed dialoum's comment about using external amps for the Front LCR units. How necessary might that really be? Adding additional amps wasn't "in my plan" at all, but & - if needed - might have to wait a bit until I finish financially "digesting" a while.

There's no simple cheap answer.... the simple answer is play safe and get external amps.... but it's not cheap.

Basically the issue is that the AVR's are current constrained - the power supply is 850W... so there's your limit

Quite a few typical stereo power amps have their based power supply at 850W or more... for only 2 channels

So, we know that we are to some degree current constrained.

Now let's look at the speakers - the RP8000F is a relatively easy load... , all the others are unknown, as we don't have test results for them! - the R5800 specs are "8 ohm compatible" - that term "compatible" is always a danger sign... same for the ceiling speakers "8 ohm compatible".

It's worth keeping in mind that the load on the Surround/Height speakers is typically an order of magnitude less than the load on the mains (L/C/R) ...

Perhaps the best advice would be to provide enough space in your setup, so you can add amps should they be needed.... Install it with the AVR, and try it out.

If you can get a loan (or have a spare...) power amp, you can try driving some of the speakers via seperate amps - and see whether it makes an audible difference.
In my own setup, where the Front L/R are the most difficult speakers in the system, putting them on a seperate power amp, cleaned up and improved the sound markedly... I later also put the center on an external amp - but that didn't make any obvious difference. The key is, once you have "enough" any additional will not get used...

It isn't an easy decision.... but external amps need not cost an arm and a leg... I purchased a pair of used Crown XLS2500's for $250 each about 10 years ago... they can be found cheaply on the used market in the US (especially the pro/pa/band markets). I also have vintage Quad 606 amps, made in the late 80's that still work wonderfully (and are a great sounding amp) - you can find these and similar bargains out there.... and at their used prices, you can try them, and if you don't like the result, move them on for minimal cost.

 

[Chromatischism]

Now let's look at the speakers - the RP8000F is a relatively easy load... , all the others are unknown, as we don't have test results for them! - the R5800 specs are "8 ohm compatible" - that term "compatible" is always a danger sign... same for the ceiling speakers "8 ohm compatible".

Here's the impedance vs phase for the RP-8000F II:

 

[SDMatt]

A question about order of operation: I have 3 subwoofers that I want to connect to my Onkyo TX-RZ50 using a MiniDSP 2x4HD. Should I run DIRAC 1st and then make adjustments in the MiniDSP using REW? Or should I make all my subwoofer adjustments in the MiniDSP using REW 1st then run DIRAC? Does order of operation matter?

 

[dlaloum]

Here's the impedance vs phase for the RP-8000F II:

Came up as broken link for the Impedance / Phase chart

 

[Chromatischism]

Broken link? It's an image.

 

[GalZohar]

A question about order of operation: I have 3 subwoofers that I want to connect to my Onkyo TX-RZ50 using a MiniDSP 2x4HD. Should I run DIRAC 1st and then make adjustments in the MiniDSP using REW? Or should I make all my subwoofer adjustments in the MiniDSP using REW 1st then run DIRAC? Does order of operation matter?

Of course it matters. Dirac will see your minidsp as a single sub and will measure and calibrate accordingly.
If you want to make adjustments to a different target curve than what Dirac does, you'll have to do it after.
The best way, though, is probably to run MSO first just for minimum seat to seat variation mode, which will do its best to make Dirac's work as easy as possible, then let Dirac do the rest and adjust speakers+subwoofer to the desired target curve. If you don't use MSO or something else that effectively generates individual subwoofer filters in such a configuration, then just use the minidsp for delays for optimal summation between the subwoofers, then let Dirac EQ the subs as a single sub.
In any case, filters you should assume that Dirac is the one to handle filters that are applied to all subwoofers rather than the minidsp, unless you can prove otherwise.

Keep in mind that if you boost in the minidsp, Dirac won't know that the minidsp applied a boost, and may apply an additional boost, which may result in excessive and undesirable total boosting. That can happen also if you run Dirac first and then generate additional filters for the minidsp with extra boosting. I'm guessing either way it's safest to avoid any boosts in the minidsp in any case when there's an automatic EQ system in the chain as well.

Although this discussion should probably be in its own thread, as this isn't a question specific to the RZ50.

 

[luigy39]

I purchased this unit for its Dirac capabilities. I have an external integrated amp (215 watts per channel) with home theater bypass for the stereo channels, and a 200 watts amp for the center channel. I'm really happy enjoying the Onkyo TX-RZ50 this way, it sounds amazing with movies, then I use my integrated for music listening, Welcome to Paradise.

 

[Descartes]

Too bad the review by Amir was not better, but thank you so much for pointing out all the flaws!
I was looking forward to this receiver with DIRAC Live! Maybe Denon will announce their new receivers with DIRAC at CEDIA 2023 and will have fixed all the HDMi problems that they have been having with the PS5!

 

[dlaloum]

I purchased this unit for its Dirac capabilities. I have an external integrated amp (215 watts per channel) with home theater bypass for the stereo channels, and a 200 watts amp for the center channel. I'm really happy enjoying the Onkyo TX-RZ50 this way, it sounds amazing with movies, then I use my integrated for music listening, Welcome to Paradise.

Do you find much of a difference between the RZ50 as Pre and the Integrated as Pre?

I have found the Integra 3.4 to be an excellent pre - running my front L/C/R amps much like you - but I have not endeavoured to compare it to a seperate stereo preamp (or integrated)...

 

[luigy39]

Do you find much of a difference between the RZ50 as Pre and the Integrated as Pre?

I have found the Integra 3.4 to be an excellent pre - running my front L/C/R amps much like you - but I have not endeavoured to compare it to a seperate stereo preamp (or integrated)...

I guess you are a asking about music listening in stereo? Yes, there is a significant difference, and that is using the Onkyo's pre section being amplified by the integrated amp, I imagine the difference would be greater if I were to compare the onkyo with its own amplification, even though, I think that would be an unfair comparison as I have the Kinki Studio EX-M1+ powering the Anthony Gallo reference 3.5 speakers that need a lot of power, and the Kinki that has been reviewed very favorably for its price.

I am a 50/50 music and movies kind of person, I think I have found a balance that works for me, but there is no doubt that for critical music listening you need, at least, a good integrated.

 

[dlaloum]

I guess you are a asking about music listening in stereo? Yes, there is a significant difference, and that is using the Onkyo's pre section being amplified by the integrated amp, I imagine the difference would be greater if I were to compare the onkyo with its own amplification, even though, I think that would be an unfair comparison as I have the Kinki Studio EX-M1+ powering the Anthony Gallo reference 3.5 speakers that need a lot of power, and the Kinki that has been reviewed very favorably for its price.

I am a 50/50 music and movies kind of person, I think I have found a balance that works for me, but there is no doubt that for critical music listening you need, at least, a good integrated.

I too run a set of Gallo Reference speakers in my case they are 3.2's (with Reference AV center)

I have ended up running them with Crown XLS2500's ... as Anthony Gallo used to demo them with the Spectron Musician (500W @ 8ohm, doubling into 4 ohm and again into 2 ohm) - the Crowns were the nearest thing I could find without taking out a mortgage!

One thing I noted fairly quickly after getting the new AVR, was a dramatic improvement in Music (as well as movies... but I use Music for my critical testing!) , once Dirac was activated... better imaging, soundstage, and much improved clarity of detail (a bit of the proverbial "veil lifting").

I had previously had a flagship AVR with Audyssey XT32 (2013 vintage Integra DTR70.4) - with which the system definitely sounded better with the DRC turned off... but with the Integra/Onkyo, I find that is not the case - the setup definitely sounds better with Dirac turned on.

I also found that the old and new AVR's sounded identical, in raw stereo mode (ie no EQ/DRC) as long as there was sufficient power... (ie: running with external power amps) - so in preamp terms the current generation seems good (to me).

You don't find that Dirac brings benefits to Stereo music? (that was the core reason I wanted Dirac, having heard it doing some magic in a couple of audio shows...)

 

[luigy39]

To be 100% honest with you, my reasoning behind buying the Onkyo was for purely for movies, I would have to give music a try with Dirac engaged.

 

[DrStranger]

Question to you RZ50 owners. Does it get hot or can you push it / run for a while and it wont get hot, like people describing Denon/Marants? Or is it much cooler. I think this will be the one to get for me, if I ever can get my hands on one, for a fair and correct/normal price...

 

[dlaloum]

Question to you RZ50 owners. Does it get hot or can you push it / run for a while and it wont get hot, like people describing Denon/Marants? Or is it much cooler. I think this will be the one to get for me, if I ever can get my hands on one, for a fair and correct/normal price...

No, it does not get hot... runs surprisingly cool.

But still, make sure it has room to breathe!