Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[pbc]

This may or may not be issue for you... Pioneer is stuck with global crossovers so one setting for all where as Onkyo/Integra shouldn`t have this limitation.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 (with Dirac) Unboxing and Overview

Hey all, I recently picked up a Pioneer Elite VSX LX 505 and wanted to share some impressions and a half baked video review for you. I haven’t seen much media on these new Pioneer/Onkyo devices with Dirac, as they are pretty new and pretty hard to find. This unit will be making its way to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ummm....wow that's terrible.

 

[jefny]

It's not such a bad review...

The issue with the amps going into "protection mode" has existed at least for the last 2 generations... in the pioneer range LX303/4/5 LX503/4/5, Integra DRX 3.3/3.4/4.3/5.4 and Onkyo's...

To trigger it requires continuous load at 4 ohm - if you read the many reviews out there by users from all 3 related brands, over the last 5 years... even users with 4 ohm speakers, are just not reporting the issue in real life... (I have seen only 1 user report the problem, over thousands of user postings).

Then when you look at other aspects of performance - signal to noise/dynamic range, preout voltage & clipping - the figures are very good.

So yes we know that this AVR family has a specific characteristic, that it protects itself, when placed under specific types of stress. (we also know that other brands tested have similar protection systems...) - it is a perhaps overly protective approach, but given past experiences where Onkyo was insufficiently protective, and had overheating related failures... a comprehensible one.

In terms of sound quality they are very good (I have an Integra DRX 3.4).

In terms of amplification, most people who have hard to drive loads that might trigger the sort of issue documented in the review (as I do), aren't going to run on the internal amps, as optimum sound quality won't be achieved that way - hard to drive speakers require high current capability amps, able to drive 2 ohms without concern - I don't believe there are ANY AVR's that can really do that properly ... hence I run external amps, and my real concern, is the quality of the Pre-Out signal, and it's max voltage so that it matches properly with my external amps.

Personally, from my perspective, in my use case, it is a big "thumbs up" - what I wanted was something capable of running surrounds and height, while giving me the pre outs to run my main left / right (and center would be a bonus).

In the end, the relatively puny 100W 3.4, is running my Center as well as surrounds (and yes the center is a difficult load) - and my power amps are running L/R - removing the L/R load off the AVR, freed up enough power for it to handle the center cleanly.
I did try the AVR running the whole setup on its own, it did not sound great - the sound improved markedly, as soon as I removed the L/R load from it... To handle the sort of speakers I have, the power supply in the AVR would need to be twice the size...

I value AmirM's measurements, as they provided me with insight into the weaknesses and strengths of the most economical option in the market today for a Dirac home theatre prepro or receiver...

Having used Audyssey since 2008... Dirac has been a dramatic stepwise improvement - I heartily recommend this family of AVR's - and my one proviso is the same one I would make for every AVR... check your speakers impedance charts, against your proposed AVR's amp capabilities - most (all I think!) AVR's won't do well with difficult speaker loads. - This is mostly a precaution, as most people's speakers are NOT difficult loads... but there are loads of fantastic sounding "exotics" that require a bit more care in the choice of amps.

Thanks for the reply. Though I just mentioned it in my posting, I was really put off by the lack of support from Onkyo. I had purchased a cheaper Onkyo AVR for my daughter and after just downloading a software update the Onkyo died. It was just 6 weeks after the warranty ended. A call to Onkyo resulted in them blowing my daughter off. Their only suggestion was to bring it to their "authorized" repair shop in Queens. I did that and the place was a complete mess. The "tech" took almost a week to check out the system and he said the main circuit board was burnt out and the repair cost was 60% of the original purchase price. In addition, parts were hard to get, so I was to wait to get a new one 3-4 weeks at best. They charged me $50 for looking. I told him to keep it. With the lack of availability of the RZ50, I could just imagine repair issues and spare part problems. I decided, forget Onkyo and the RZ50.
jefny

 

[Rottmannash]

I wanted to order a RZ50. But the 4 ohms issue is stopping me.
In my configuration the Avr needs to drive 2 large column speakers (bi-amp) and the center channel.
There is no chance it will do it properly.
I will wait for the upper level RZ serie if they are available one day.

It is sad that the power protection is not better designed.

I don't bi amp any more but did for awhile from a RZ810 (which we can assume has very similar, if not identical amp sections) using the internal amps and bi amped a pair of Polk towers-never an issue, never shut down, even at insane volume levels. I personally would not be concerned about the AVR's capability in driving tower speakers, even in a bi amped configuration unless you towers have very low impedance. What towers are you going to bi amp?

Also the AVR was driving the speakers bi amped, a center and two rear surrounds all by its lonesome so driving a full load, meaning all the AVR's amps were in use. Bi amping took one of the surround channels out of use.

 

[Dj7675]

It's not such a bad review...

The issue with the amps going into "protection mode" has existed at least for the last 2 generations... in the pioneer range LX303/4/5 LX503/4/5, Integra DRX 3.3/3.4/4.3/5.4 and Onkyo's...

To trigger it requires continuous load at 4 ohm - if you read the many reviews out there by users from all 3 related brands, over the last 5 years... even users with 4 ohm speakers, are just not reporting the issue in real life... (I have seen only 1 user report the problem, over thousands of user postings).

Then when you look at other aspects of performance - signal to noise/dynamic range, preout voltage & clipping - the figures are very good.

So yes we know that this AVR family has a specific characteristic, that it protects itself, when placed under specific types of stress. (we also know that other brands tested have similar protection systems...) - it is a perhaps overly protective approach, but given past experiences where Onkyo was insufficiently protective, and had overheating related failures... a comprehensible one.

In terms of sound quality they are very good (I have an Integra DRX 3.4).

In terms of amplification, most people who have hard to drive loads that might trigger the sort of issue documented in the review (as I do), aren't going to run on the internal amps, as optimum sound quality won't be achieved that way - hard to drive speakers require high current capability amps, able to drive 2 ohms without concern - I don't believe there are ANY AVR's that can really do that properly ... hence I run external amps, and my real concern, is the quality of the Pre-Out signal, and it's max voltage so that it matches properly with my external amps.

Personally, from my perspective, in my use case, it is a big "thumbs up" - what I wanted was something capable of running surrounds and height, while giving me the pre outs to run my main left / right (and center would be a bonus).

In the end, the relatively puny 100W 3.4, is running my Center as well as surrounds (and yes the center is a difficult load) - and my power amps are running L/R - removing the L/R load off the AVR, freed up enough power for it to handle the center cleanly.
I did try the AVR running the whole setup on its own, it did not sound great - the sound improved markedly, as soon as I removed the L/R load from it... To handle the sort of speakers I have, the power supply in the AVR would need to be twice the size...

I value AmirM's measurements, as they provided me with insight into the weaknesses and strengths of the most economical option in the market today for a Dirac home theatre prepro or receiver...

Having used Audyssey since 2008... Dirac has been a dramatic stepwise improvement - I heartily recommend this family of AVR's - and my one proviso is the same one I would make for every AVR... check your speakers impedance charts, against your proposed AVR's amp capabilities - most (all I think!) AVR's won't do well with difficult speaker loads. - This is mostly a precaution, as most people's speakers are NOT difficult loads... but there are loads of fantastic sounding "exotics" that require a bit more care in the choice of amps.

The other parts of the equation when purchasing an AVR/Processor are reliability, features, and support.

This may or may not be issue for you... Pioneer is stuck with global crossovers so one setting for all where as Onkyo/Integra shouldn`t have this limitation.

Pioneer VSX-LX505 (with Dirac) Unboxing and Overview

Hey all, I recently picked up a Pioneer Elite VSX LX 505 and wanted to share some impressions and a half baked video review for you. I haven’t seen much media on these new Pioneer/Onkyo devices with Dirac, as they are pretty new and pretty hard to find. This unit will be making its way to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Seems like a strange limitation ... having to crossover the LCR same as atmos speakers for example would be a problem for many it would seem.

 

[valerianf]

What towers are you going to bi amp?

It is a Streem tower (3 way with 2x8 Inch woofer speaker impedance 8 Ohm) with a custom crossover.
I need to trace the impedance curve of my speakers using DATS.
The Avr only drives the 2 towers in bi-amp and the center channel.
The center speaker is rated 6 ohms.
Surround is connected to another amplifier.

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for the reply. Though I just mentioned it in my posting, I was really put off by the lack of support from Onkyo. I had purchased a cheaper Onkyo AVR for my daughter and after just downloading a software update the Onkyo died. It was just 6 weeks after the warranty ended. A call to Onkyo resulted in them blowing my daughter off. Their only suggestion was to bring it to their "authorized" repair shop in Queens. I did that and the place was a complete mess. The "tech" took almost a week to check out the system and he said the main circuit board was burnt out and the repair cost was 60% of the original purchase price. In addition, parts were hard to get, so I was to wait to get a new one 3-4 weeks at best. They charged me $50 for looking. I told him to keep it. With the lack of availability of the RZ50, I could just imagine repair issues and spare part problems. I decided, forget Onkyo and the RZ50.
jefny

Service has been variable for a number of years...

Some agents were excellent, and onkyo did the right thing by extending warranty of the manufacturing faults found....( through to 2018 ).

But right now, we are dealing with a completely different organisation... Voxx international, and their Premium Audio Co. Subsidiary.

Unless your experience was in the last 8 months, you were dealing with a completely different company.

Here in Australia, there is NO onkyo/Integra service, as all previous agents were part of the previous distributor organisation, and the new organisation has not yet appointed or set up servicing....

So at present I am withholding opinion on service & support, while the company gets its sh@t together...

I suggest you do too... no point starting the new co. With the old companies brush!

 

[dlaloum]

The other parts of the equation when purchasing an AVR/Processor are reliability, features, and support.

Seems like a strange limitation ... having to crossover the LCR same as atmos speakers for example would be a problem for many it would seem.

Apparently there are more detailed settings in other menus, and once you run dirac, many of the xo's are irrelevant anyway...

 

[Dj7675]

Apparently there are more detailed settings in other menus, and once you run dirac, many of the xo's are irrelevant anyway...

I don't understand why the crossovers would be irrelevant. Units that don't have DLBC use the crossovers in the AVR. If your atmos speakers ony go down to 120hz, it seems that would be a problem if you dont want to set your other speakers at that crossover. Can you explain why the xo's would be irrelevent?

 

[dlaloum]

I don't understand why the crossovers would be irrelevant. Units that don't have DLBC use the crossovers in the AVR. If your atmos speakers ony go down to 120hz, it seems that would be a problem if you dont want to set your other speakers at that crossover. Can you explain why the xo's would be irrelevent?

I believe Dirac determines each speaker pairs capabilities, and then uses that accordingly - overriding the other XO settings

 

[Grierts]

Due to the power limiting from this AVR, would an external amplifier be a good solution?

Does anyone think its even necessary?

For a less than 1500sq ft room with 10ft seating distance. Is an external amp necessary?

5 speakers with efficiency of 86db

 

[Rottmannash]

It is a Streem tower (3 way with 2x8 Inch woofer speaker impedance 8 Ohm) with a custom crossover.
I need to trace the impedance curve of my speakers using DATS.
The Avr only drives the 2 towers in bi-amp and the center channel.
The center speaker is rated 6 ohms.
Surround is connected to another amplifier.

Since you're only powering the L/R and C with the AVR you shouldn't have a problem IMO.

 

[Dj7675]

Since you're only powering the L/R and C with the AVR you shouldn't have a problem IMO.

Wouldn't it be hard to know without having actual measurements on how difficult his center is to drive, the sensitivity of the speaker, his listening distance etc? On top of that, when you monitor the level of center channel use, the demands on it are very high. Just pointing out, that it is really hard to know. And worse, if the receiver goes into limited mode, there is not indicator.

 

[pbc]

I believe Dirac determines each speaker pairs capabilities, and then uses that accordingly - overriding the other XO settings

Is there a way to measure/confirm this? Seems odd that Pioneer wouldn't permit adjustments to crossover by speaker pair if in fact it was capable of doing so.

Curious. Will see if anyone tried measuring this in the AVS thread.

How does the 505 compare to the 50 and 3.4 in your opinion otherwise in terms of specs?

Seems to be available at least.

 

[dlaloum]

How does the 505 compare to the 50 and 3.4 in your opinion otherwise in terms of specs?

Identical...

 

[Rottmannash]

Wouldn't it be hard to know without having actual measurements on how difficult his center is to drive, the sensitivity of the speaker, his listening distance etc? On top of that, when you monitor the level of center channel use, the demands on it are very high. Just pointing out, that it is really hard to know. And worse, if the receiver goes into limited mode, there is not indicator.

Of course. We don't have enough data to accurately answer his question. I was simply giving my opinion based on my experience with my 2 RZ series amps.

 

[Dj7675]

I believe Dirac determines each speaker pairs capabilities, and then uses that accordingly - overriding the other XO settings

I have seen Dirac do that on my Storm if you set the crossovers too low on a speaker. You can see the “after correction” and it won’t adhere to the target curve (correctly) because the speaker can’t handle it. It is an interesting thought.

 

[Johnp]

I don't understand why the crossovers would be irrelevant. Units that don't have DLBC use the crossovers in the AVR. If your atmos speakers ony go down to 120hz, it seems that would be a problem if you dont want to set your other speakers at that crossover. Can you explain why the xo's would be irrelevent?

Crossovers are relevant if you don’t want a universal crossover, The displayed crossovers are the measured crossovers in the unit. It does not appear that Dirac is doing anything behind the scenes.

Years ago, I read advice to keep the crossover universal so the subwoofer low pass was always the same, supposedly providing consistency in the lower frequencies. In my previous Yamaha, I kept it universal at 80Hz even though the option was there for individual speaker pairs. My LCR and surrounds are crossed at 80Hz as they should be, and I don’t hear any problems with the surround backs and heights being set at 80Hz when they might be better at 100 or 120Hz. No stress on the speakers, no perceived holes in the sound, and no distortion that I can tell. I don’t think it matters much either way, but I prefer a universal setting.

 

[Flak]

Conclusions
The inclusion of proper Room EQ in mid-priced AVRs is major news indeed. Alas, my job here is to characterize the performance of the platform itself and the news there is not good. The amplifier has serious power limiting "feature"

Thanks for the detailed measurements but I wonder, with reference to the reported power limiting at 4 ohms, which is the TX-RZ50 dynamic power at 4 ohms.
It seems to me that dynamic power is what really matters because of the nature of music/movies... I make reference, for example, to this dated Yamaha page:

usafaq

usa.yamaha.com

Maybe that reported power limiting isn't present with actual music/movies with dynamic content and peaks that last for a few milliseconds only?
(I remember that many years ago NAD used to outline the dynamic capabilities of their amps)

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for the detailed measurements but I wonder, with reference to the reported power limiting at 4 ohms, which is the TX-RZ50 dynamic power at 4 ohms.
It seems to me that dynamic power is what really matters because of the nature of music/movies... I make reference, for example, to this dated Yamaha page:

usafaq

usa.yamaha.com

Maybe that reported power limiting isn't present with actual music/movies with dynamic content and peaks that last for a few milliseconds only?
(I remember that many years ago NAD used to outline the dynamic capabilities of their amps)

There has been debate on the appropriate measurement method for amplifiers, for decades....

And we do indeed have standards for continuous power as well as peak/dynamic power measures.

Most of us grew up with the continuous rms power measurements as the "Yardstick" - it certainly is the hardest test to pass!

And in the days when amps had 20W to 50W RMS, and 100W amps were considered "high powered beasts"... the continuous power measurements were important.

But when economy amps are rated at 75W and high powered beasts are at 500W - one does have to ask the question again.... what is the most relevant and appropriate measure?

In actual use, there have been almost no reports of going into protection (I have noted only one instance over the last 4 to 5 months...) - and the amps with their protection system have been in use in previous generations of Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer AVR's for probably the last 5 years or more... with very very few reports of protection issues.

So perhaps this kind of test should be looked on as a search for the upper limits of an AVR's amp capabilities?
But to do that the test would need to be redesigned, so we can tell, how long the amp could take certain power loads, or levels of current, or levels of heat.... so we end up with something measurable, meaningful and repeateable...

 

[wheelbarrow]

Dirac RZ50 question here: I know the RZ50 does not have DLBC, but I see that it does change all the speaker (and LFE) crossover settings whenever I use Dirac. If Dirac is changing all the crossover settings, including the subwoofer channel, does that mean the only thing I gain by getting a product with DLBC down the road is subwoofer phase correction and multi-sub support? (I use a single SVS 3000 Micro right now).

Thanks