Not loving my AT740MLx

[dlaloum]

Yes they are. And long gone as new. One important thing was also keeping resonance out of the audio band (light cantilevers). Resonance around 8-16 kHz that many MM cartridges have seems to correlate with poorer crosstalk in the same frequency region. Tracing and tracking problems in the HF seems to be audibly lower if crosstalk is low. Distortion seems more controlled. Not sure yet but i might be that the Nagaoka MP-500 has a better HF crosstalk.

As an aside, it is not only MM's that have the resonance between 8-16kHz - it is any cartridge with current technology cantilever - which is pretty much all cartridges!

The exceptions are things that are very different - like the Dynavector Karat with its 2.3mm long cantilever, or the Decca London cartridges...

But anything with a "standard" cantilever, will have exactly the same issue as the effective mass is driven by the cantilever structure, and the resonance is an outcome of the effective mass (lower mass = higher resonant frequency, and vice versa....)

Although there were various claims that MC's had lower effective tip mass due to no "heavy" magnets.... reality is the magnets were never a substantive proportion of the total.... and the cantilever structure itself is the biggest single contributor. (although I have seen some crude needle glue applications that would add a heap of mass... but not on anything of decent quality)

 

[dlaloum]

Another trick is to use shorter cantllevers. I am bit uncertain but think that the OM40 makes benefit of that so that the resonance is around 25 kHz. But these have still too high crosstalk over the entire band as well as higher distortion. Perhaps shorter cantilevers comes at a cost. My last hope for a >20 kHz resonance is Nagaoka MP-500 but I am also very interested to see the JT-80 with boron cantilever.

I don't think the OM40 cantilever is any shorter than the OM30 is it? no substantive different ...

 

[dlaloum]

for example, we observe such a shift on the at-150mlx and their boron cantilever?

No, I have measured AT boron cantilevers.... they are solid rod - not pipe - which will put their resonance within the audible range

 

[dlaloum]

The ADC styli have very short cantilevers. Back in the day, they touted this as a feature which resulted in the lowest moving mass available (but never specified a #).

I wish someone would post some measurements of the Rivertone ADC styli that are made with OEM (but old stock) components.

I never got around to testing the ADC styli for resonance.... that would be interesting.

 

[Thomas_A]

I don't think the OM40 cantilever is any shorter than the OM30 is it? no substantive different ...

All OM cantilevers the same but diamond mass differs. I don’’t have the OM30 but HF response would be better than the ”heavy” OM10.

 

[dlaloum]

All OM cantilevers the same but diamond mass differs. I don’’t have the OM30 but HF response would be better than the ”heavy” OM10.

I have OM20 and OM30 but not OM40... cantilever is very nice, high quality aluminium - nothing exotic, but among the best you can get in that material - on a par with most boron cantilevers

 

[Thomas_A]

I have OM20 and OM30 but not OM40... cantilever is very nice, high quality aluminium - nothing exotic, but among the best you can get in that material - on a par with most boron cantilevers

Yes, nothing exotic about them other than that the claim a construction that allows a "natural pivot point".

1. By means of computer simulations it has been possible to define the natural pivot point of the system with unprecedented accuracy while achieving an optimum oscillation balance. The result: improved linearity, higher channel separation, and reduced distortion.

If that means defining a stylus that allows a higher than the usual 8-16 kHz resonance of typical aluminium cantilevers. The OM10 with its heavy diamond seems to have it rather high already (18 kHz?) and OM40 is clearly above 20 kHz (see measurements in the database thread).

But again the overall distortion and crosstalk is nothing to brag about, at least what I measured. We need more measurements of these to confirm.

 

[cgallery]

As an aside, it is not only MM's that have the resonance between 8-16kHz - it is any cartridge with current technology cantilever - which is pretty much all cartridges!

The exceptions are things that are very different - like the Dynavector Karat with its 2.3mm long cantilever, or the Decca London cartridges...

But anything with a "standard" cantilever, will have exactly the same issue as the effective mass is driven by the cantilever structure, and the resonance is an outcome of the effective mass (lower mass = higher resonant frequency, and vice versa....)

Although there were various claims that MC's had lower effective tip mass due to no "heavy" magnets.... reality is the magnets were never a substantive proportion of the total.... and the cantilever structure itself is the biggest single contributor. (although I have seen some crude needle glue applications that would add a heap of mass... but not on anything of decent quality)

What is required to get resonance above 20k for cantilevers of a more typical length? I assume the beryllium and boron tubes of yesteryear accomplished this. How about solid beryllium (I think my ATN152LP styli use solid)? Solid boron (very common today)?

The Rivertone ADC XLM Improved MkII (3x7 Diasa) looks to have a peak of about 5db @ 18.7k according to my crude measurement capabilities. I only mention this model because ADC touted the shorter cantilevers and Rivertone is assembling them from old OEM components. This is the second time I've mentioned this stylus in as many days, but I'm not obsessed with it (I'm not even using one at the time), I'm just lately curious about these resonant frequency issues.

 

[Bob from Florida]

What is required to get resonance above 20k for cantilevers of a more typical length? I assume the beryllium and boron tubes of yesteryear accomplished this. How about solid beryllium (I think my ATN152LP styli use solid)? Solid boron (very common today)?

The Rivertone ADC XLM Improved MkII (3x7 Diasa) looks to have a peak of about 5db @ 18.7k according to my crude measurement capabilities. I only mention this model because ADC touted the shorter cantilevers and Rivertone is assembling them from old OEM components. This is the second time I've mentioned this stylus in as many days, but I'm not obsessed with it (I'm not even using one at the time), I'm just lately curious about these resonant frequency issues.

Do you have sufficient extended treble hearing capabilities to be offended by a treble peak above 10K? If you do, you could use the Waxwing Phono DSP and utilize its capabilities to pull the peak down.
Audio OCD can get expensive chasing solutions to issues that may not matter much.

 

[Thomas_A]

Do you have sufficient extended treble hearing capabilities to be offended by a treble peak above 10K? If you do, you could use the Waxwing Phono DSP and utilize its capabilities to pull the peak down.
Audio OCD can get expensive chasing solutions to issues that may not matter much.

It's not so much the SPL, but the tracking/distortion issues when the stylus start to go wild at resonance, seen in e.g. the crosstalk.

 

[Thomas_A]

What is required to get resonance above 20k for cantilevers of a more typical length? I assume the beryllium and boron tubes of yesteryear accomplished this. How about solid beryllium (I think my ATN152LP styli use solid)? Solid boron (very common today)?

The Rivertone ADC XLM Improved MkII (3x7 Diasa) looks to have a peak of about 5db @ 18.7k according to my crude measurement capabilities. I only mention this model because ADC touted the shorter cantilevers and Rivertone is assembling them from old OEM components. This is the second time I've mentioned this stylus in as many days, but I'm not obsessed with it (I'm not even using one at the time), I'm just lately curious about these resonant frequency issues.

The old hollow tubes of yesterday for sure. Or shorter tubes of today. I can only think of the short diamond cantilever mentioned before, the Ortofon OM30/40 and perhaps the Nagaoka MP500 that at least push it close to 20 kHz or just above. The Nagaoka JT-80BK might be on the border as well.

https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/media/062021audiojt80bk.pdf

https://www.nagaoka.co.jp/media/STEREO_3-21_Nagaoka-Abtaster_englisch.pdf

Needs confirmation by ASR-made measurements!

 

[cgallery]

Do you have sufficient extended treble hearing capabilities to be offended by a treble peak above 10K? If you do, you could use the Waxwing Phono DSP and utilize its capabilities to pull the peak down.
Audio OCD can get expensive chasing solutions to issues that may not matter much.

I use a MiniDSP to flatten the response, but it doesn't seem to always yield the result I would expect. Please see Thomas' response below.

It's not so much the SPL, but the tracking/distortion issues when the stylus start to go wild at resonance, seen in e.g. the crosstalk.

It seems to me that some of my recordings with especially splashy cymbals trigger some kind of distortion when using cartridges having a pronounced cantilever resonance at even higher frequencies than I can hear (I'm almost sixty).

Even when these tracks are the first (outside) on the album (so one would assume that the 3x7 stylus can track them adequately).

I wasn't sure if this higher frequency resonance is destructive in a way I can hear at lower frequencies.

I recently discovered I had switched my DIY phono stage's loading from 47k to 36k some time ago and forgot (dumb).

Now that I've changed it back to 47k, I plan to switch back to the ADC (I've been using an AT152LP with a VMN40ML for a while now) and try listening again.

 

[Thomas_A]

It seems to me that some of my recordings with especially splashy cymbals trigger some kind of distortion when using cartridges having a pronounced cantilever resonance at even higher frequencies than I can hear (I'm almost sixty).

Even when these tracks are the first (outside) on the album (so one would assume that the 3x7 stylus can track them adequately).

I wasn't sure if this higher frequency resonance is destructive in a way I can hear at lower frequencies.

I recently discovered I had switched my DIY phono stage's loading from 47k to 36k some time ago and forgot (dumb).

Now that I've changed it back to 47k, I plan to switch back to the ADC (I've been using an AT152LP with a VMN40ML for a while now) and try listening again.

My experience is that as well, but I really don't have hard facts. But compare boron to beryllium stylus:

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

I measured a second Stanton a month ago at 270pF: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/introducing-the-phono-cartridge-measurement-library.46108/post-2117074 I highly recommend to use the index to see if there are multiple measurements for any particular cartridge. It is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The beryllium x-talk stays lower 10-20 kHz, rises later or not att all vs. the solid boron.

 

[JP]

The Nagaoka JT-80BK might be on the border as well.

It's raining today.

 

[Thomas_A]

It's raining today.

Then I suppose it's time then

 

[Bob from Florida]

It's not so much the SPL, but the tracking/distortion issues when the stylus start to go wild at resonance, seen in e.g. the crosstalk.

How much of the resonance is from the cartridge compliance versus arm mass? Or headshell resonance, etc.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I use a MiniDSP to flatten the response, but it doesn't seem to always yield the result I would expect. Please see Thomas' response below.



It seems to me that some of my recordings with especially splashy cymbals trigger some kind of distortion when using cartridges having a pronounced cantilever resonance at even higher frequencies than I can hear (I'm almost sixty).

I think I know the "splashy cymbals" distortion you refer to. I had a Garrett Brothers P77 that used to do that. I think the diamond was overly worn. When I replaced the cartridge, the issue went away. Current group of mounted cartridges don't have the issue.

 

[JP]

Then I suppose it's time then

View attachment 408435

We don't have any of that yet. Hope we do - practically no boarding last winter, and not much better the one before. Did manage to get most of the inventory done yesterday, if you want to adjust my priority list https://docs.myhi.fi/docs/cartridges/inventory.html

 

[Thomas_A]

How much of the resonance is from the cartridge compliance versus arm mass? Or headshell resonance, etc.

HF resonances could be headshell, but I have no idea of how much. If you look at the same arm and cartridge that I linked to, there is a difference between the stylus types. Crosstalk signal is more sensitive revealing such resonances.

 

[Thomas_A]

We don't have any of that yet. Hope we do - practically no boarding last winter, and not much better the one before. Did manage to get most of the inventory done yesterday, if you want to adjust my priority list https://docs.myhi.fi/docs/cartridges/inventory.html

Ha, well. There are two reasons for my wishes (the Nagaoka family and the OM/Super OM family). The models are available for purchase new and the personal interest of stylus resonances vs performance. Ortofon claims their "natural pivot point" and Nagaoka is kind of an underground company. Many of your cartridges are really interesting to get performance data from but almost impossible to buy NOS. More of a complete research project to go through the list. Fire at will.