Is a line contact stylus (Shibata, Microline, Special line contact) a bad choice for worn or damaged records?

[Drakon]

This designs reads more of the groove and has reportedly better high-frequency response. However will it not also reveal more of the wear and damage to the grooves? I would think this could and would add (considerable) unwanted noise.

So is a high end detail revealing cartridge and old LPs a marriage to be avoided?

I plan to replace my years old turntable with a higher end Music Hall or Technics. One on the cartridge choices is an Ortofon Quintet Black with a Shibata stylus another is a Goldring eroica lx with a more standard elliptical shape. But I started thinking I don't want and can't replace all of my old albums so should I not be considering a line contact when I should be an elliptical? It would save $$$. The Music Hall MMF-9,3 comes with either above cartridges installed. I haven't settled on the Technics.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[levimax]

Like everything with TT's it depends on a lot of uncontrolled and unpredictable variables. The standard answer is a line contact stylus will ride in a different (undamaged or less damaged) part of the groove than a conical or eliptical stylus so will sound better on a damaged record. I have found this to be generally true but it will vary from record to record and stylus to stylus.

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't know how much "damage" is normal record wear but a different stylus shape seems to make sense.

If you digitize your records there is software for cleaning it up. Or the Waxwing preamp has noise reduction.

...I haven't "played records" for decades but if we didn't have digital I'd probably buy a Waxwing.

 

[mike70]

This designs reads more of the groove and has reportedly better high-frequency response. However will it not also reveal more of the wear and damage to the grooves? I would think this could and would add (considerable) unwanted noise.

So is a high end detail revealing cartridge and old LPs a marriage to be avoided?

I plan to replace my years old turntable with a higher end Music Hall or Technics. One on the cartridge choices is an Ortofon Quintet Black with a Shibata stylus another is a Goldring eroica lx with a more standard elliptical shape. But I started thinking I don't want and can't replace all of my old albums so should I not be considering a line contact when I should be an elliptical? It would save $$$. The Music Hall MMF-9,3 comes with either above cartridges installed. I haven't settled on the Technics.

Appreciate your thoughts.

The best price / performance today is AT ... by far. In MC, the at33ptg is microline with boron cantilever almost at half price tag than quintet black.
In MM the vm540 is a fantastic microline at 200 USD.

I have had many cartridges ... now I use those, simply changing the headshell in my Technics

 

[Drakon]

Seems one is making a commitment buying the line contact and even more so if fixed. I do not have enough expertise to comfortably go down that road. Like having to swap the engine in that new car because it's not working out.

I need to listen to the setup(s) with one of my albums.

 

[undeakyetonde]

Audiophile anecdotes go either way. But I certainly read countless testimonies of how microline styli "ride dead quiet in the groove"

Just buy an AT-VM95ML and see for yourself. To make comparison more fair add an elliptical VMN95E stylus and change them back and forth. It certainly shouldn't break your bank if you are considering units like Ortofon Quintet.

Maybe you could even publish some samples on ASR so that we could the difference ourselves, not relying on anecdotes.

 

[Drakon]

Audiophile anecdotes go either way. But I certainly read countless testimonies of how microline styli "ride dead quiet in the groove"

Just buy an AT-VM95ML and see for yourself. To make comparison more fair add an elliptical VMN95E stylus and change them back and forth. It certainly shouldn't break your bank if you are considering units like Ortofon Quintet.

Maybe you could even publish some samples on ASR so that we could the difference ourselves, not relying on anecdotes.

Thanks. I just started studying Mike70s at33ptg. I'll look at the 95ML. For now I'll shelve the MMF-9.3 due to its fixed cartridge design. There is a $500 sale on their goldring eroica lx setup (elliptical) but if pursuing line contact works mush on.

As for publishing samples I've no test equipment so it would be entirely subjective.

 

[NoMoFoNo]

Unless your records are trashed it might be overthinking things to worry about stylus profiles on a new set up. I also would not consider running a very expensive LOMC cartridge until I had good, broad experience with a range of cartridges. There are experienced hobbyists who happily run average $100-$300 MM cartridges. Why delve into the world of high prices, retipping and the need for so much signal amplification just because?

 

[Drakon]

Unless your records are trashed it might be overthinking things to worry about stylus profiles on a new set up. I also would not consider running a very expensive LOMC cartridge until I had good, broad experience with a range of cartridges. There are experienced hobbyists who happily run average $100-$300 MM cartridges. Why delve into the world of high prices, retipping and the need for so much signal amplification just because?

Good point. I could be wrong but I don't see myself doing much cartridge swapping. Perhaps naively i am wanting to pick something that puts me over the line of performance concerns. A star performer with dismissable cons. Paired with the right tonearm = my last TT.

 

[NoMoFoNo]

Good point. I could be wrong but I don't see myself doing much cartridge swapping. Perhaps naively i am wanting to pick something that puts me over the line of performance concerns. A star performer with dismissable cons. Paired with the right tonearm = my last TT.

Playing vinyl records is probably not the best place to think in these terms. It doesn't take much for the equipment to outshine the media itself. Records are wonky, rarely flat, rarely centered perfectly, with a notable noise floor that vinylistas tend not to want to talk about. How much money does one want to sink into that world before it becomes a matter of snake oil and chasing massively decreasing returns?

A competent performer will do the job without needing $$$ expended IMO. In terms of cartridges, they all sound a little different, but different doesn't equal better. I know plenty of hobbyists who spent big money on ever-more-impressive turntables and LOMC cartridges, not to mention phono amps, and who later tired of the expense and hassles and settled on mid-range gear running moderately-priced MM cartridges with conical and elliptical styli.

 

[Drakon]

Playing vinyl records is probably not the best place to think in these terms. It doesn't take much for the equipment to outshine the media itself. Records are wonky, rarely flat, rarely centered perfectly, with a notable noise floor that vinylistas tend not to want to talk about. How much money does one want to sink into that world before it becomes a matter of snake oil and chasing massively decreasing returns?

A competent performer will do the job without needing $$$ expended IMO. In terms of cartridges, they all sound a little different, but different doesn't equal better. I know plenty of hobbyists who spent big money on ever-more-impressive turntables and LOMC cartridges, not to mention phono amps, and who later tired of the expense and hassles and settled on mid-range gear running moderately-priced MM cartridges with conical and elliptical styli.

Yeah, I think that decreasing return arrives at your doorstep fairly quickly. If one has a lot of money and I'm talking private plane wealth I can see buying that "only 100 of these will be made turntable". I have no statistics but feel $2-5k is pretty much the ceiling for getting out of an album what is there. It's not a theory I'm going to test. But that is my limit - closer to the $2k.

I was curious if the line contact needed pristine vinyl or could track an old worn groove without causing or revealing problems therein. It sounds like it might miss that wear by riding a new area of the groove. Though I don't know how that is possible with the wider "footprint".

Having such a stylus on a removable headshell is a bonus.

P.S. I like Technics but wish they would drop that rediculous pitch control. We're not DJs.

 

[Robin L]

P.S. I Technics but wish they would drop that rediculous pitch control. We're not DJs.

Their most recent direct-drive offering dropped the pitch control. The SL-1300G goes for a little over $3,300, has a removeable headshell on its built-in tonearm.

 

[Drakon]

Their most recent direct-drive offering dropped the pitch control. The SL-1300G goes for a little over $3,300, has a removeable headshell on its built-in tonearm.

I saw that on their site. $3,300. No cartridge options. But buyers at this level shop for their own. It surprised me they didn't go for something more exotic than an aluminum S tonearm.

I looked weeks ago for a scratch and dent 1210G grand on my favorite store but said to myself "What are you doing?"

 

[Robin L]

I saw that on their site. $3,300. No cartridge options. But buyers at this level shop for their own. It surprised me they didn't go for something more exotic than an aluminum S tonearm.

I looked weeks ago for a scratch and dent 1210G grand on my favorite store but said to myself "What are you doing?"

Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice.

I personally don't have a problem with the pitch control. I just have a problem with LPs in general.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Let’s hope the SL-1300G does not have the wobbly platter issue that many 1200 owners have reported , or are Technics hiding the problem by skipping the strobes?

 

[Drakon]

Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choice.

I personally don't have a problem with the pitch control. I just have a problem with LPs in general.

The pitch esthetics don't bother me. It's we are paying for something few if any use.

 

[Robin L]

The pitch esthetics don't bother me. It's we are paying for something few if any use.

DJs use it, but DJs hardly use analog discs these days.

 

[Drakon]

I meant us.

 

[LTig]

This designs reads more of the groove and has reportedly better high-frequency response. However will it not also reveal more of the wear and damage to the grooves? I would think this could and would add (considerable) unwanted noise.

So is a high end detail revealing cartridge and old LPs a marriage to be avoided?

IME it's just the opposite. I bought the majority of my ~1300 records 2nd hand, and the sound got cleaner and quieter when I changed my pickup from a MC with elliptical needle cut to one with van den Hul 2 (Shibata?) cut and now an AT microline cut.

The reason is (I think) that the records had been played with cheap pickups (round or elliptical) which destroyed a narrow part of the groove due to their point contact zone. The line contact needle uses the undestroyed part of the groove. Similar to driving along a tram line: the bicycle tire falls into it, the car tire doesn't notice it.

 

[mike70]

Yeah, I think that decreasing return arrives at your doorstep fairly quickly. If one has a lot of money and I'm talking private plane wealth I can see buying that "only 100 of these will be made turntable". I have no statistics but feel $2-5k is pretty much the ceiling for getting out of an album what is there. It's not a theory I'm going to test. But that is my limit - closer to the $2k.

I was curious if the line contact needed pristine vinyl or could track an old worn groove without causing or revealing problems therein. It sounds like it might miss that wear by riding a new area of the groove. Though I don't know how that is possible with the wider "footprint".

Having such a stylus on a removable headshell is a bonus.

P.S. I like Technics but wish they would drop that rediculous pitch control. We're not DJs.

So, don't use the pitch ... technics have a button that disables the pitch control.