New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[unpluggged]

Can MA1 configure/manage multiple subs? Sorry I haven't updated the app in a while.

Yes, it can (but still not in stereo sub configuration, AFAIK). I would still try to play around with the sub's placement before getting a second one, though. It also might be your perception (knowing where the sub is or seeing it you may inadvertently "locate" the bass. I think I had experienced such an effect myself).

 

[custom]

Yes, it can (but still not in stereo sub configuration, AFAIK). I would still try to play around with the sub's placement before getting a second one, though. It also might be your perception (knowing where the sub is or seeing it you may inadvertently "locate" the bass. I think I had experienced such an effect myself).

I did a lot of testing and placing the subs at 1/4 and 3/4 of the room width was the best.

 

[Unfit4it]

Yes, it can (but still not in stereo sub configuration, AFAIK). I would still try to play around with the sub's placement before getting a second one, though. It also might be your perception (knowing where the sub is or seeing it you may inadvertently "locate" the bass. I think I had experienced such an effect myself).

It's only while playing certain tracks where I can tell where the bass is coming from. Unfortunately I dont have enough room to move it around for best placement. I do however have enough room for another one right next to my desk.

 

[IamJF]

I'm having a bit of an issue with me sometimes being able to locate where the sub is placed in the room. Do you think adding another 750 will fix that? I just find it distracting and somewhat annoying and its making me consider selling my 120s along with the sub and going the 3 way monitor route instead.

You use MA1 with the 750 and still can hear the sub location?
120 or 120ii?
What cross over frequency?
At all volumes?

Normally you hear a sub located when the level is WAY to high, the crossover doesn't work properly cause level is to high and phase is off or it distorts already. Or cross over is not steep enough (2nd order).
All of these problems should be solved with an MA1 setup? Or do you have very strong room resonance you trigger at the woofer loaction?

You loose the ability to place the low frequency driver at the perfect spot in the room when switching to 3-way.

 

[markstein]

Newsletter from Neumann:

"MA 1 – Automatic Alignment: Version 2.4 now available


Dear audio professionals, home recording enthusiasts, musicians and music fans,

MA 1 comes with another fresh update for Windows PC and Mac, making reference Automatic Monitor Alignment Software even quicker and easier:

Below, you will find a list of further improvements, updates and a high-level summary of the software’s functionality.

Feature Updates & Bug Fixes:

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Extended number of supported subwoofers to up to eight for both Bass Managed Stereo and Multichannel Systems​

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Introduced compatibility with macOS 15​

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Faster processing of alignment filters​

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Improved User Guidance during firmware updates​

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Improved User Experience of License handling​

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Increased stability when switching between multiple setups and alignments​

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Increased stability when connecting to networks with non-KH devices sending SSC​

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Preview: "Proxy Settings" which allows connection to proxies with authentication​

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Fixed: possible connectivity issues right after booting under Windows​

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Fixed: possible crash after saving an alignment​

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Fixed: possible user interface freeze on macOS​

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Fixed: "Replace Monitor" did not work in some edge cases​

"

 

[markstein]

Is it possible in the meantime - with this new update - to use a multisub setup in a stereo system and let MA-1 manage the subs (like DLBC, Harman ARCOS or manually by using multisub optimizer)?

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Is it possible in the meantime - with this new update - to use a multisub setup in a stereo system and let MA-1 manage the subs (like DLBC, Harman ARCOS or manually by using multisub optimizer)?

For 2 subs this has been possible for a long time.

I made a comparison between DLBC and MA 1 last year: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...live-bass-control-dlbc-dual-kh750-subs.43054/

As far as i understand with the new update the number of supported subs increased from 2 to 8 in a stereo system.

 

[markstein]

Hi @DJBonoBobo, very interesting, thank you.

In your comparison, are both subs mono or assigned to left and right channel each?

I am driving my subs (KH810) mono, one at the front wall and one at the back wall. Thinking about adding a third one (KH750), replacing the KH810 with KH750 and am wondering if such a multisub mono setup could be be managed by MA-1.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi @DJBonoBobo, very interesting, thank you.

In your comparison, are both subs mono or assigned to left and right channel each?

I am driving my subs (KH810) mono, one at the front wall and one at the back wall. Thinking about adding a third one (KH750), replacing the KH810 with KH750 and am wondering if such a multisub mono setup could be be managed by MA-1.

Neumann´s MA1 supports only mono subwoofers - bass below crossover is always summed to mono. Also only KH750, so you cannot combine KH810 and 750.

 

[NoTBaTMaN]

Seems like getting a second sub is the way to go to fix this. Still works out cheaper than buying decent 3 way monitors, I guess. Can MA1 configure/manage multiple subs? Sorry I haven't updated the app in a while.

It's only while playing certain tracks where I can tell where the bass is coming from. Unfortunately I dont have enough room to move it around for best placement. I do however have enough room for another one right next to my desk.

For me, the second KH750 solved the problem with the sub being locatable, now I have no idea the subs are even on (I use them with KH310A).
The pressure differential between the ears was my main issue.
With the newly added support for 8 subs, I'm thinking about two more however xD

 

[jzpchen]

I just had my KH120 ii stereo setup and ran through an alignment session. I wasn't too careful about the mic positions. Now I just want to delete this alignment. So if when I get the alignment deleted and with no more alignment, are I getting back to the default with no alignment?

Another reason to ask this is that when I had that alignment, I was interested in quickly turning off that alignment. It doesn't have an easy choice on the page. If I edit the alignment, there is check-box for me to deactivate the alignment. When I deactivated, I cannot save that disabled alignment. Did I miss something?

 

[Dimension]

I have no idea what is the starting output channel. Do i just leave it like that? I don't know why don't see the outputs as a pair. I use an Rme babyface pro. I can still do the measurement but i am wondering if im doing something wrong here.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I have no idea what is the starting output channel. Do i just leave it like that? I don't know why don't see the outputs as a pair. I use an Rme babyface pro. I can still do the measurement but i am wondering if im doing something wrong here.

View attachment 425931

Not 100% sure how it works exactly, but don't worry about it, if it works how it is. I think it always starts with front left and then goeas in a specific order.
I have a quad system with 4 output channels, and it goes FL, FR, SL, SR, starting from output channel analog 1 for front left (to 4 for surround right). If i had some other speakers on my outputs 1 and 2, i could set MA1 to start from 3 and counting up to output 6, because in that case i don't want it to use outputs 1 and 2.
With RME Totalmix, "output channels" can be routed to different hardware outputs, though. In my case i still chose Analog Output 1 in MA1 although my front speakers are actually connected to SPDIF. But in TotalMix, Analog 1 output channel is routed to the FL SPDIF hardware output.

 

[Dimension]

Not 100% sure how it works exactly, but don't worry about it, if it works how it is. I think it always starts with front left and then goeas in a specific order.
I have a quad system with 4 output channels, and it goes FL, FR, SL, SR, starting from output channel analog 1 for front left (to 4 for surround right). If i had some other speakers on my outputs 1 and 2, i could set MA1 to start from 3 and counting up to output 6, because in that case i don't want it to use outputs 1 and 2.
With RME Totalmix, "output channels" can be routed to different hardware outputs, though. In my case i still chose Analog Output 1 in MA1 although my front speakers are actually connected to SPDIF. But in TotalMix, Analog 1 output channel is routed to the FL SPDIF hardware output.

Thank you so much DJBonoBobo. One last question, i cant have an exact equilateral measurement is it ok to just use the LP position for the measurement? Distance between monitors is 122cm (between tweeters) and im about 111cm.Thanks again

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Thank you so much DJBonoBobo. One last question, i cant have an exact equilateral measurement is it ok to just use the LP position for the measurement? Distance between monitors is 122cm (between tweeters) and im about 111cm.Thanks again

Yes, use the distance from speakers to LP, no problem.

 

[Dimension]

Yes, use the distance from speakers to LP, no problem.

Thank you

 

[dasherzx]

Hi, I just did my calibration via analog inputs from the audio interface. if i go to spdif, does it retain the calibration settings? All i have to do is leave the switch on network right?
Also, id probably add a sub down the line for movies and stuff, can I add a simple dac on the spdif out of the second monitor for the subwoofers? The sub is just a cheap rca input sub for the sole purpose of michael bay films

 

[vsch]

Hi, I just did my calibration via analog inputs from the audio interface. if i go to spdif, does it retain the calibration settings? All i have to do is leave the switch on network right?
Also, id probably add a sub down the line for movies and stuff, can I add a simple dac on the spdif out of the second monitor for the subwoofers? The sub is just a cheap rca input sub for the sole purpose of michael bay films

Regarding the second part of your question about sub integration: Your mileage may vary, but unfortunately, I think what you outline in your question would either be suboptimal or not work at all. Here are the issues you might encounter:

• If you manage to convert the SPDIF signal coming from the second speaker to analog via a DAC, you will get two separate channels, one R and one L. Hence, your subwoofer needs to have separate R+L RCA inputs (which it then sums up internally). Not all cheap subs have this, as far as I know.
• Volume control will only work if you use a source that digitally attenuates the SPDIF signal that you feed to your speakers. I think it will not work if you use the MA-1 kit to control volume directly within the speakers, as this way, only the speakers' volume but not the sub's volume would be affected.
• Your speakers are not high-passed and run full range. That makes integrating the subwoofer tricky, as you have to figure out at which frequency and with which slope they roll off. (You may be able to use the MA-1 kit to force them to roll off at a specific frequency with a predefined slope, but I don’t know whether that’s possible.)
• If your sub does not have a built-in DSP, the slope of its low-pass filter will probably not match the slope of the speakers' natural roll-off.
• Even if you can approximately match the slopes of the speakers' and the sub's frequency roll-offs at the crossover, you still have to level-match and phase-align the subwoofer manually.
• Finally, if the subwoofer has no DSP, you cannot room-correct it. This could mess up the whole sound.
• In sum, I think the overall sound quality could actually be worse compared to using your MA-1-calibrated speakers alone.

If you have Neumann speakers and use the MA-1 kit to room-correct them, the obvious way to add a subwoofer is to buy the pricey but competent KH 750.

Alternatively, you could integrate a relatively cheap hifi sub with a minidsp Flex digital, which can act as an active crossover, volume control, and DSP for the sub. That is, you could feed the SPDIF signal to the miniDSP and use it to set the crossover and time-align & room-correct the sub. More specifically, you would output i) a high-passed SPDIF signal to the speakers (which are room-corrected via MA-1) and ii) a R&L-summed, low-passed, and room-corrected SPDIF signal to a cheap DAC connected to your hifi sub. In the miniDSP, you could time-align the two signals, i) and ii), to properly integrate the subwoofer. As all of this cannot be done by ear, you would also need to buy a UMIK-1 to take measurements and use REW to determine the time-alignment and the room correction filters for the sub.

(All of the above could probably also be achieved with a PC & a digital audio interface (such as the Motu 8D). This would give you even more flexibility than the miniDSP Flex digital but has a steeper learning curve.)

Regarding the first part of your question: Unfortunately, I don't know whether the filters set by the MA-1 kit are stored in the speakers and will still work when you disconnect the kit and use digital instead of analog input. I guess so, but I am really not sure.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Hi, I just did my calibration via analog inputs from the audio interface. if i go to spdif, does it retain the calibration settings? All i have to do is leave the switch on network right?

Yes, settings are stored in the speakers, independent from source setting.

PS: At least if you set the input to "automatic". Not sure what happens if you set it to "analog".

 

[dasherzx]

Regarding the second part of your question about sub integration: Your mileage may vary, but unfortunately, I think what you outline in your question would either be suboptimal or not work at all. Here are the issues you might encounter:

• If you manage to convert the SPDIF signal coming from the second speaker to analog via a DAC, you will get two separate channels, one R and one L. Hence, your subwoofer needs to have separate R+L RCA inputs (which it then sums up internally). Not all cheap subs have this, as far as I know.
• Volume control will only work if you use a source that digitally attenuates the SPDIF signal that you feed to your speakers. I think it will not work if you use the MA-1 kit to control volume directly within the speakers, as this way, only the speakers' volume but not the sub's volume would be affected.
• Your speakers are not high-passed and run full range. That makes integrating the subwoofer tricky, as you have to figure out at which frequency and with which slope they roll off. (You may be able to use the MA-1 kit to force them to roll off at a specific frequency with a predefined slope, but I don’t know whether that’s possible.)
• If your sub does not have a built-in DSP, the slope of its low-pass filter will probably not match the slope of the speakers' natural roll-off.
• Even if you can approximately match the slopes of the speakers' and the sub's frequency roll-offs at the crossover, you still have to level-match and phase-align the subwoofer manually.
• Finally, if the subwoofer has no DSP, you cannot room-correct it. This could mess up the whole sound.
• In sum, I think the overall sound quality could actually be worse compared to using your MA-1-calibrated speakers alone.

If you have Neumann speakers and use the MA-1 kit to room-correct them, the obvious way to add a subwoofer is to buy the pricey but competent KH 750.

Alternatively, you could integrate a relatively cheap hifi sub with a minidsp Flex digital, which can act as an active crossover, volume control, and DSP for the sub. That is, you could feed the SPDIF signal to the miniDSP and use it to set the crossover and time-align & room-correct the sub. More specifically, you would output i) a high-passed SPDIF signal to the speakers (which are room-corrected via MA-1) and ii) a R&L-summed, low-passed, and room-corrected SPDIF signal to a cheap DAC connected to your hifi sub. In the miniDSP, you could time-align the two signals, i) and ii), to properly integrate the subwoofer. As all of this cannot be done by ear, you would also need to buy a UMIK-1 to take measurements and use REW to determine the time-alignment and the room correction filters for the sub.

(All of the above could probably also be achieved with a PC & a digital audio interface (such as the Motu 8D). This would give you even more flexibility than the miniDSP Flex digital but has a steeper learning curve.)

Regarding the first part of your question: Unfortunately, I don't know whether the filters set by the MA-1 kit are stored in the speakers and will still work when you disconnect the kit and use digital instead of analog input. I guess so, but I am really not sure.

i do have a umik lying around. and the subwoofer im getting does have r+l rca. I guess it would be doable, pretty much calibrating a second time with a sub if I ever need to.
On another note i was just done calibrating my second pair and I had the unfortunate incident of having a bike run pass my house at step 7/7 and I had to redo the whole thing again from 1. If neumann is reading this please give us an option to redo the last step too D:

*on a side note, if you think the measurement is going to fail you can quickly cancel it before the message asking you to repeat the whole process pops up*