New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[Misterioso]

On another note i was just done calibrating my second pair and I had the unfortunate incident of having a bike run pass my house at step 7/7 and I had to redo the whole thing again from 1. If neumann is reading this please give us an option to redo the last step too D:

This option already exists. I had to repeat one step recently when a plane flew over my house.

 

[dananski]

Yes, settings are stored in the speakers, independent from source setting.

PS: At least if you set the input to "automatic". Not sure what happens if you set it to "analog".

The "Input Select" switch on the back? The setting is not called "Automatic" but I can confirm the same eq applies whether it is set to "Analog" or any of the SPDIF options. (I presume also for AES67 on that model.)

The "Control" switch determines whether it uses MA1 alignment settings - "Network" - or "Local" eq settings (the "Accoustical Controls" and "Output Level" switches on the back). Be warned the gain can be very different between the two - please no one deafen yourself changing it during playback!

I don't know whether the filters set by the MA-1 kit are stored in the speakers and will still work when you disconnect the kit and use digital instead of analog input.

You don't need to keep the ethernet plugged in to use "Network" once MA1 configuration is done - the settings are indeed stored in the speakers. It's true you need some digital volume control of the SPDIF out if you aren't using the MA1 network to change volume.

Rear switches for reference:

I had the unfortunate incident of having a bike run pass my house at step 7/7 and I had to redo the whole thing again from 1. If neumann is reading this please give us an option to redo the last step too D:

Yikes! They still haven't put in a 'back one step' button? This was already a common complaint when I complained about it over a year ago.

Regarding your sub connection, what's your output coming from in the first place? I use an RME UCX II audio interface with sub connected on analog output and KH 150s connected on SPDIF output. I control volume for both in the interface too - I synced the sliders in TotalMix so that the physical volume knob controls them both at once to keep sub level matched with the speakers (this only works while connected to a host, not in standalone mode). TotalMix also has eq and phase flip, which are helpful for integrating the sub. You may or may not not be using an RME interface, but I might be able to suggest some workaround or partial solution.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

The "Input Select" switch on the back? The setting is not called "Automatic" but I can confirm the same eq applies whether it is set to "Analog" or any of the SPDIF options. (I presume also for AES67 on that model.)

No, i mean in MA1 when you setup the system there.
"Input connection: Automatic"

Yikes! They still haven't put in a 'back one step' button? This was already a common complaint when I complained about it over a year ago.

It is possible to repeat only the last measurement. From the manual:

• Note! At the end of each set of measurements it is possible to repeat the last set or repeat all the previous measurements. These options may be useful if it is known that a disturbance occurred during the measurement set, or if a loudspeaker position or room arrangement change is required.

I don't know why that did not work for @dasherzx

 

[dasherzx]

No, i mean in MA1 when you setup the system there.
"Input connection: Automatic"
View attachment 446345



It is possible to repeat only the last measurement. From the manual:

• Note! At the end of each set of measurements it is possible to repeat the last set or repeat all the previous measurements. These options may be useful if it is known that a disturbance occurred during the measurement set, or if a loudspeaker position or room arrangement change is required.

I don't know why that did not work for @dasherzx

Its an error popup that will come out with only a button to redo the whole 7 steps, no way of clicking anything else in the calibration software (not that i know off. im already exhausted at that time). I encountered it a second time on another setup. this time round my neumann speakers made popping noises (the kind where you jiggle the interconnect) every time it started a sine sweep.

 

[dasherzx]

Regarding your sub connection, what's your output coming from in the first place? I use an RME UCX II audio interface with sub connected on analog output and KH 150s connected on SPDIF output. I control volume for both in the interface too - I synced the sliders in TotalMix so that the physical volume knob controls them both at once to keep sub level matched with the speakers (this only works while connected to a host, not in standalone mode). TotalMix also has eq and phase flip, which are helpful for integrating the sub. You may or may not not be using an RME interface, but I might be able to suggest some workaround or partial solution.

I'm on a topping d10s that has an spdif out + rca. It's the cheapest dac I can get my hands on. For the neumanns i adjusted the max volume while it was all connected to the ma1 software. For the sub theres a volume knob at the back. I'll probably just use my ears. Anyways I cant justify an rme interface yet as its just my hobby and I dont earn a penny from it.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

Its an error popup that will come out with only a button to redo the whole 7 steps, no way of clicking anything else in the calibration software (not that i know off. im already exhausted at that time). I encountered it a second time on another setup. this time round my neumann speakers made popping noises (the kind where you jiggle the interconnect) every time it started a sine sweep.

Do you remember what kind of error? Just asking out of interest.
In my case it has helped increasing the buffer in the ASIO driver to avoid popping sounds.

 

[dananski]

I'm on a topping d10s that has an spdif out + rca. It's the cheapest dac I can get my hands on. For the neumanns i adjusted the max volume while it was all connected to the ma1 software. For the sub theres a volume knob at the back. I'll probably just use my ears. Anyways I cant justify an rme interface yet as its just my hobby and I dont earn a penny from it.

Fair enough. I used a D10b before I got the UCX II. I ran the analogue to the sub and coax to the Neumanns. You can output both digital and analog from there at the same time. If I hadn't happened to find a good deal on the RME interface so quickly, I might have resorted to using Equalizer APO to balance the sub with the speakers and provide synced volume control. You can leave above-sub frequencies alone in APO and add a high pass filter to the Neumanns themselves so that they don't try to reproduce any bass intended for the sub, then fiddle with tuning everything below that to tune the sub as well as you can.

It can do phase adjustments too - I have impulse response files set up for other speakers so it does both phase and amplitude corrections in a frequency dependent fashion. But I'm not sure how best to produce such an IR file in your case - maybe REW can do this, it does collect sufficient data for such a calculation. I don't have either software in front of me right now, but even if an impulse response file isn't possible, EQ APO might have another phase tool that fits your needs.

 

[panyunqi888]

I'd like to ask for advice. Apologies if this has been asked before.
I'm using KH80 speakers. Due to room constraints, I can't position them in a perfect equilateral triangle—the distance between the two speakers is 86 cm, but my listening position is 65 cm from each speaker.
In the software, when prompted to input a = b = c, should I enter 86 cm (distance between speakers) or 65 cm (listening distance)? Also, should the MA1 measurements be centered on the listening position? Thanks！！！！

 

[IamJF]

That's actually a pretty good question - and I don't have any idea for what they use this distance. I would probably use the listening distance or just some value in between - you get your measurements anyways and that's the base for the calculations. Mic needs to be at the listening position.

 

[Qu@rk]

This was answered before:
If you do not have 3 equal distances (equilateral triangle, recommended), use the distance between your listening position and the speakers.

 

[dasherzx]

Do you remember what kind of error? Just asking out of interest.
In my case it has helped increasing the buffer in the ASIO driver to avoid popping sounds.

Late reply right here, but I cant recall the full message anymore. But on the second sentence it does ask/suggest you to increase the asio driver buffer. You are spot on.

 

[NeverBetter]

New user here. It's not clear to me how I can connect things. I've got the KH150 speakers and MA-1. I have a TP-link 5 port ethernet box. Do I connect this to my modem and then from the ethernet box to each of the 2 speakers? Or do I need to buy a usb ethernet box (is there such a thing? My local computer/ office/ internet stuff shop didn't have anything like that with multi ethernet out) that plugs into my PC and then from the ethernet box to each speaker? Do both those work? Or only one work? Thanks if you read and can help.
EDIT: Well I suppose it must come our of your PC's ethernet port. So that answers that. Except I thought the ethernet port on the back of my PC was just an input for ethernet. So I'm confused about what to do. I haven't found the instructions helpful regarding this networking aspect.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

New user here. It's not clear to me how I can connect things. I've got the KH150 speakers and MA-1. I have a TP-link 5 port ethernet box. Do I connect this to my modem and then from the ethernet box to each of the 2 speakers? Or do I need to buy a usb ethernet box (is there such a thing? My local computer/ office/ internet stuff shop didn't have anything like that with multi ethernet out) that plugs into my PC and then from the ethernet box to each speaker? Do both those work? Or only one work? Thanks if you read and can help.
EDIT: Well I suppose it must come our of your PC's ethernet port. So that answers that. Except I thought the ethernet port on the back of my PC was just an input for ethernet. So I'm confused about what to do. I haven't found the instructions helpful regarding this networking aspect.

The KH150 needs to be connected to the PC via ethernet. The "ethernet box" with 5 or more ports is called "switch". You can use this like an adapter because your PC only has 1 ethernet port.
You can connect PC ethernet port -> 1 cable -> switch -> 2 cables -> 2 speakers.
In the end, 3 ports of your 5 port switch are used.

 

[NeverBetter]

The KH150 needs to be connected to the PC via ethernet. The "ethernet box" with 5 or more ports is called "switch". You can use this like an adapter because your PC only has 1 ethernet port.
You can connect PC ethernet port -> 1 cable -> switch -> 2 cables -> 2 speakers.
In the end, 3 ports of your 5 port switch are used.

Well I sure appreciate that. It sounds like I have what I need. Thank you

 

[NeverBetter]

Completed the MA-1 correction as precisely as I could. Was pretty underwhelmed by the unaligned reading. I knew the room was bad but maybe not that bad. I used the manual corrective eq at 80hz to boost and fill that region out. And called it a day. I'm trying to mix music here and it is always an exercise in plenty of compromise. The software could have been a little more exact in several areas. I found at the end when invited to play music and toggle between aligned and unaligned...my system wouldn't play any music. RME Fireface didn't like being hijacked by MA-1 or something. I am not sure. But I had to close down the software, switch back to 'Local' and go from there in order to play music. So I couldn't do any toggling of the before/ after alignment. There was no announcement in the software saying you were now finished and to do xyz if you want to use your monitors in xyz fashion. So I just shut it down. Anyway, I hope I can mix with some degree of confidence here.The aligned version of the speakers sounds more full in the bass freq and generally the sound seems more uniform. But I'd like to have done the toggle align/ not aligned. I can try again another time maybe.

 

[dananski]

That's quite a dip in upper bass. How far are the speakers from the wall? A gap leads to cancellation with the reflected sound. I (and Neumann) recommend placing the speakers right up as close to the walls as you can whilst staying in equilateral triangle formation with the listening position.
Far away from all walls should work also, preferably with extensive treatment behind them to reduce the reflections. But right up at the wall is my preference as it boosts the low bass so you can have less distortion at any given SPL.

 

[NeverBetter]

That's quite a dip in upper bass. How far are the speakers from the wall? A gap leads to cancellation with the reflected sound. I (and Neumann) recommend placing the speakers right up as close to the walls as you can whilst staying in equilateral triangle formation with the listening position.
Far away from all walls should work also, preferably with extensive treatment behind them to reduce the reflections. But right up at the wall is my preference as it boosts the low bass so you can have less distortion at any given SPL.

The front/face of the speakers are about 55cm from the wall. I'm in a very bad room. 8x9ft. It's very small. I can maybe get the speakers another 30cm closer to the wall so that would be then say 25cm wall to woofer /tweeter. I have DIY treatment in the room but this treatment was done by feel, not with any informed measurements or tuning. Many physical aspects of the room kind of limit my options.

EDIT: I get the impression that me just using the manual eq in MA-1 to pump more volume into that huge 80hz dip is an exercise in futility. I guess I will start by getting the speakers closer to the front wall.

 

[dananski]

The front/face of the speakers are about 55cm from the wall. I'm in a very bad room. 8x9ft. It's very small. I can maybe get the speakers another 30cm closer to the wall so that would be then say 25cm wall to woofer /tweeter. I have DIY treatment in the room but this treatment was done by feel, not with any informed measurements or tuning. Many physical aspects of the room kind of limit my options.

EDIT: I get the impression that me just using the manual eq in MA-1 to pump more volume into that huge 80hz dip is an exercise in futility. I guess I will start by getting the speakers closer to the front wall.

Heh well I'm in the UK so that room doesn't sound small 55cm to front of speaker shouldn't be bad - the manual recommends to "Avoid positioning the loudspeaker at a distance (dwall) of 0.8 to 1.75 m from the wall behind the loudspeaker.". The SBIR effect with a distance of 55cm would give a dip at 156Hz rather than 70-90Hz where your dip is deepest, so I expect this is not the issue. You might be getting a bit from the side/angled walls if they're about 95cm-1.2m away.

Whatever the exact cause - whether cancellation from a nearby wall, ceiling floor, or a room mode - it may well help to try some other positions, as the -9dB dip will be from the room, not the speaker.

For quicker testing you can use REW to make measurements: you can download your MA 1 mic's calibration file from Neumann and then in REW, use the mic and the calibration file to do a quick bass measurement to check that dip. It could be relieved by a small shift.

Or, using listener/source symmetry, you could place a speaker in your listening position and measure/listen around where you want the speaker for a good spot.

After finding a reasonably dip-free spot for bass for both speakers, you can then go through the full room correction process, which can deal with the smaller wobbles in frequency response.

Best of luck! I'll be going through this with five Neumann DSP speakers soon!

 

[NeverBetter]

Heh well I'm in the UK so that room doesn't sound small 55cm to front of speaker shouldn't be bad - the manual recommends to "Avoid positioning the loudspeaker at a distance (dwall) of 0.8 to 1.75 m from the wall behind the loudspeaker.". The SBIR effect with a distance of 55cm would give a dip at 156Hz rather than 70-90Hz where your dip is deepest, so I expect this is not the issue. You might be getting a bit from the side/angled walls if they're about 95cm-1.2m away.

Whatever the exact cause - whether cancellation from a nearby wall, ceiling floor, or a room mode - it may well help to try some other positions, as the -9dB dip will be from the room, not the speaker.

For quicker testing you can use REW to make measurements: you can download your MA 1 mic's calibration file from Neumann and then in REW, use the mic and the calibration file to do a quick bass measurement to check that dip. It could be relieved by a small shift.

Or, using listener/source symmetry, you could place a speaker in your listening position and measure/listen around where you want the speaker for a good spot.

After finding a reasonably dip-free spot for bass for both speakers, you can then go through the full room correction process, which can deal with the smaller wobbles in frequency response.

Best of luck! I'll be going through this with five Neumann DSP speakers soon!

Thanks a lot. Yeah I noticed the dwall 0.8-1.75. I've have just moved speakers closer to the front wall but the characteristics of the measurement are basically the same...probably with some slightly worse response around 600. But the big 80hz (approx) dip is still basically the same. The side walls are 1.10m from the centre listening position. The ceiling at the listening position is about 2.4m. At the listening position the side walls are purely absorption. Would it make sense to add reflective panels/ slats to those direct side walls similar to what you can see left and right of the speaker positions? My layman's logic is that instead of sucking those low freqs in it may reflect at least some of them back to the listening position.

The thing about trying different positions in here is...well there's many things. I have to make the room work for many things so I'm very restricted with what I can do trying different positions. I guess there's only so many ways you can stand comfortably in a telephone box and get work done. One positional change I could pull off would be to slightly widen the speaker distance from each other and pull the listening position back to form the equilateral triangle idea. Or if the equilateral triangle is not crucial I could leave the distance between the speakers as it is and just push the listening position back a bit to see if I can escape the 80hz null.

You're right...it's a room issue. It's a terrible room. Who would have thought that home builders in 1960 had no mind for constructing bedrooms with excellent studio qualities. Baffling.

Attaching the new MA-1 readings showing results from speakers back about 15cm (that's as far back as I could go) and slightly wider. Listening pos in equilateral with speakers. As you can see, I've tried to caveman that 80hz area with a +2db so it's gooder. But as Neumann says on their site...pumping volume into nulls/ room modes aint gonna work.

Also...I dunno...all I want to do is mix accurately and confidently. With a freq graph like that...can I? Is it cataclysmic? Horrible? Workable or ok?

 

[boxerfan88]

80Hz ~ 4.3m
180* phase shift 2.15m
Woofer sound need to travel 2.15m extra distance back to listening position to cause cancellation at 80 -- which surface could that be?
My guess will be the floor. Probably can't do much about it. Not sure if a carpet can help coz the wavelength is just so long.

With your small PEQ boost at 80Hz has brought the overall dip to -3dB, that's pretty good actually.

(in my own setup, the floor bounce causes a huge dip [~-12dB] at 67Hz, thankfully the dip is very high-Q [steep & narrow], therefore I just live with it.)