New Neumann MA 1 - Automatic Monitor Alignment

[NeverBetter]

80Hz ~ 4.3m
180* phase shift 2.15m
Woofer sound need to travel 2.15m extra distance back to listening position to cause cancellation at 80 -- which surface could that be?
My guess will be the floor. Probably can't do much about it. Not sure if a carpet can help coz the wavelength is just so long.

With your small PEQ boost at 80Hz has brought the overall dip to -3dB, that's pretty good actually.

(in my own setup, the floor bounce causes a huge dip [~-12dB] at 67Hz, thankfully the dip is very high-Q [steep & narrow], therefore I just live with it.)

To be honest, I don't think there's much I can really do at all. It's just a bad, bad room attempting to pass itself off as both a recording studio and mixing studio. My best bet is to sell my home and buy a new one...one that has a room I can use. But in this day and age...selling homes and buying new homes...I just don't think that would be a pleasant experience, ha.

I was just reading an old thread from the old Cakewalk Forums. A guy there with a room of very similar dimensions to me seeking help on an 80hz null. TLDR...the room is just too small. But if anyone is interested (I found it interesting and I kind of suspected as much) I'm attaching screenshots of one particular post.

 

[dananski]

Who would have thought that home builders in 1960 had no mind for constructing bedrooms with excellent studio qualities. Baffling.

Haha indeed.

With your small PEQ boost at 80Hz has brought the overall dip to -3dB, that's pretty good actually.

I agree, though with the caveat that the 3dB is predicted from the boost rather than measurement with the boost. I'm not sure it will do as much as predicted, but I'd say there's a good chance you can get away with it as a compromise - these speakers have very high SPL capability at this distance so why not try a bit of caveman brute force. People have made great mixes on worse.

I'd always say get familiar with how reference well-mixed tracks on whatever you want to mix on, so you don't go too far off due to tonal differences. Headphones/iems can give you a good "second opinion" without room involvement. I've had a good time with Truthear Gate lately, which is negligible cost. Another thing I like to do is band pass parts of a mix to check one part of the frequency spectrum at a time. But speaking of lay people, I'm just some programmer with a physics background, winging it in a hobby I barely have time for, so take all my advice with a grain of salt!

I suspect you're close enough now. Further treatment probably won't do much at 80Hz as it requires too thick material to absorb that low. But if you want, there are still options.

If you can find a spot with a corresponding boost, a tuned bass trap placed there could work.

I ran your 8ft x 9ft through a room mode calculator and found nothing much in 70-90Hz but it's affected by ceiling height so you might want to check that yourself. Certain ceiling heights might introduce a mode in the dip, so I suppose up/down might affect things. Desk bounce usually affects something like 125Hz I think, though distances also affect that. But really it all becomes too hard to model when you have angled walls, furniture and treatment.

80Hz ~ 4.3m
180* phase shift 2.15m

Apologies if I'm wrong with 95-120cm, but I was working with one quarter wavelength for a cancellation as I think a half wavelength distance would reflect in-phase with the direct sound (a full wavelength to the wall and back), giving constructive interference - a boost - rather than the null we see. I think I'm right about that?

 

[NeverBetter]

Haha indeed.

I agree, though with the caveat that the 3dB is predicted from the boost rather than measurement with the boost. I'm not sure it will do as much as predicted, but I'd say there's a good chance you can get away with it as a compromise - these speakers have very high SPL capability at this distance so why not try a bit of caveman brute force. People have made great mixes on worse.

I'd always say get familiar with how reference well-mixed tracks on whatever you want to mix on, so you don't go too far off due to tonal differences. Headphones/iems can give you a good "second opinion" without room involvement. I've had a good time with Truthear Gate lately, which is negligible cost. Another thing I like to do is band pass parts of a mix to check one part of the frequency spectrum at a time. But speaking of lay people, I'm just some programmer with a physics background, winging it in a hobby I barely have time for, so take all my advice with a grain of salt!

I suspect you're close enough now. Further treatment probably won't do much at 80Hz as it requires too thick material to absorb that low. But if you want, there are still options.

If you can find a spot with a corresponding boost, a tuned bass trap placed there could work.

I ran your 8ft x 9ft through a room mode calculator and found nothing much in 70-90Hz but it's affected by ceiling height so you might want to check that yourself. Certain ceiling heights might introduce a mode in the dip, so I suppose up/down might affect things. Desk bounce usually affects something like 125Hz I think, though distances also affect that. But really it all becomes too hard to model when you have angled walls, furniture and treatment.


Apologies if I'm wrong with 95-120cm, but I was working with one quarter wavelength for a cancellation as I think a half wavelength distance would reflect in-phase with the direct sound (a full wavelength to the wall and back), giving constructive interference - a boost - rather than the null we see. I think I'm right about that?

Yeah you're right about the 3db improvement. To see if it's effective (probably not, but it looks good...psychologically) you'd have to measure again with that boost in place. And yes like you said close enough for now. Getting familiar with pro tracks and using headphones...I have all these bases covered pretty nicely. I'm also a hobby home studio guy so I'm not on the clock or being held to account by anyone. Weakest link is the room...then my own skill in recording music etc. Quite an investment in monitors for such a rubbish room. I might sell and move somewhere else one day, who knows.

I have a ceiling cloud thing up there. It's only 4ft x1 and about 2 inches thick so it's probably not doing much. I'm sure the effort to take it down and re-measure would be close to pointless. I'll probably leave it at that. I might see if I can slip some more absorption down behind the panels in the front corners. But that'd be very speculative with little change in response I'd guess. So yes, will leave it at that for now. At least I have a fair idea of where the problems are in my room.

I should probably add a couple of things that just came to mind...my first measurements with MA-1 were done at 100db. The most recent one was 85db. I changed to 85 because I thought 85 was a desired linear listening level when mixing. I changed no settings on the back of the Neumanns. Everything was default. Also...I noted when MA-1 was calibrating itself and getting the signal to noise ratio sorted that it kept telling me to lower the background noise...which was impossible since the background noise during the measurements was as quiet as it is ever going to be. I tried increasing the mic gain but it didn't like it. So I tried increasing the speaker volume and it said "success" when I turned the speakers up loud enough. But according to Neumann you should NOT do that. You shouldn't increase the level. And that made me wonder...

How is the volume of the speakers in the room determined? Do I have to do that myself with an SPL meter? If I suggest to MA-1 that I will calibrate at 85db...do I myself set the speakers to 85db using my own SPL meter? Or is MA-1 doing this? I feel I made some oversights at this stage of the procedure. Not that I believe it would effect the large 80hz null. Just curious about what correct play should have been. I don't mind running measurements again.

 

[NeverBetter]

Since I don't see anywhere I can edit my last post...I'll add my blunder here...I've done all measurements with the right monitor sporting back panel eq adjustments. Neumann advises to keep everything default. Including leaving the output level on the back panel at 100. I had it at 85. Not sure if that makes much of a difference in the scheme of things if MA-1 is ultimately setting by DSP. And I hold out no hope of suddenly winding up with much more a favourable looking EQ response. But it might be an idea to carry out the MA-1 calibration according to guidelines!

 

[Qu@rk]

Before selling your home you could try to add a subwoofer Neumann KH750 (or even better 2) to the setup. You could start with one subwoofer and add a second one later to optimize the setup even more. Provided that you can afford it or want it.

The KH750s are pretty small but very powerful. If positioned correctly it could solve your problem completely and you can use MA1's automatic calibration.

 

[NeverBetter]

Before selling your home you could try to add a subwoofer Neumann KH750 (or even better 2) to the setup. You could start with one subwoofer and add a second one later to optimize the setup even more. Provided that you can afford it or want it.

The KH750s are pretty small but very powerful. If positioned correctly it could solve your problem completely and you can use MA1's automatic calibration.

Ok, well yeah maybe. But in my small brain I don't see how more bass in an 8x9ft, essentially square, DIY treated bedroom studio solves the rather large 80hz null. Isn't is a physical phenomenon? A physical limitation and characteristic of the room itself. It's just too small. The low end just can't be dealt with. See the screens in post 1461.

 

[Qu@rk]

A common misunderstanding in connection with subwoofers. You can use a subwoofer to get more bass of course. But a subwoofer (or two) can help to solve precisely such problems with speaker positioning or listening position.

The subwoofers are set up in particularly favorable positions in terms of room acoustics. They make you independent of the speaker position with regard to the room acoustics in the bass range.

So yes, one or better two subwoofers will help to solve your problem if you take the time to find the correct positions.

Please check also your listening position. Change it gradually and measure the response with a microphone placed at ear height.

 

[NeverBetter]

Fair enough. At this point, having just invested in the KH150 pair...1 sub, let alone 2 is financially out of the question. I still think the size of the room presents problems that can't be mitigated. Not least is the lack of choice with things like listening position. As said a bit earlier, the room has to serve several purposes plus I have windows I need to access and other concessions to ergonomics. It's all a compromise. There's only so many listening positions I can practically try. And I've tried at least 3 already. It is what it is.

But hey, one day I might even build that room out as a house extension and really make it a studio. For now though, it's a 1960 bedroom pretending to be a recording studio and a mixing studio. Thanks for your suggestions.

 

[randomusername]

Sorry for the stupid question guys but can MA1 software only calibrate a stereo pair at once or is there any way to calibrate each channel separately? i have not great kh120 ii placement at my home (one speaker closer to the hard wall) thus the L and R measurements in REW look very different. I tried MA1 calibration and REW generated filters for each channel and REW ones sounds much better for me

 

[IamJF]

The front/face of the speakers are about 55cm from the wall. I'm in a very bad room. 8x9ft. It's very small. I can maybe get the speakers another 30cm closer to the wall so that would be then say 25cm wall to woofer /tweeter. I have DIY treatment in the room but this treatment was done by feel, not with any informed measurements or tuning. Many physical aspects of the room kind of limit my options.

EDIT: I get the impression that me just using the manual eq in MA-1 to pump more volume into that huge 80hz dip is an exercise in futility. I guess I will start by getting the speakers closer to the front wall.

Looking at your room - you should get a bigger computer monitor! Seriously - it's a good practice to have your screen completely between your speakers! This way it creates a big front baffle and you have less fast reflections and corners. And some LF boost you can definitely use in your setup.

My mixes don't translate when I calibrate the low frequencies to flat - I always need some boost, about 4dB in my dry room. Give it a try, flat is not what most speakers do out there in the world. Of course you can get used to it, no question - but I need less corrections and control hearing with a bass boost.
Many also like a little downshelf of high frequencies (nicer listening) but I prefer to stay flat there.

 

[NeverBetter]

Looking at your room - you should get a bigger computer monitor! Seriously - it's a good practice to have your screen completely between your speakers! This way it creates a big front baffle and you have less fast reflections and corners. And some LF boost you can definitely use in your setup.

My mixes don't translate when I calibrate the low frequencies to flat - I always need some boost, about 4dB in my dry room. Give it a try, flat is not what most speakers do out there in the world. Of course you can get used to it, no question - but I need less corrections and control hearing with a bass boost.
Many also like a little downshelf of high frequencies (nicer listening) but I prefer to stay flat there.

Thanks. I'm not sure I understand the idea of adding more LF boost. The room is very small...8x9ft. I was under the impression that physically there was no way to address LF without massive amounts of absorbtion to the point of greatly diminished returns in things like room ergonomics. I mean, as it is now the low end is problematic so in my mind pumping more LF into the situation is not going to resolve the issue. I don't know for sure. That's just my feeling. As it is, I'm not calibrating my 150 pair for a flat LF...there's a hole at around 80hz! So it isn't flat. With MA-1 I filled that 80hz in a few db.

I could get a bigger computer monitor. There's 10cm either side of my monitor to the speakers. So I could find a monitor to fill out and extra 20cm.

 

[Qu@rk]

Your room geometry is certainly unfavorable.
However, the massive dip around 80 Hz is not due to your room but to the choice of speaker and listening position. No loudspeaker or measurement system can compensate for cancellations of this kind without changes to positions and room excitation (simple but unchangeable physics). Never compensate for acoustic cancellations by increasing the volume in this area (distortion, damage to the speakers).

In very small rooms such as this one, it has proven effective to rotate the arrangement by 45 degrees to counteract the acoustic cancellations and resonances at the listening position. The additional use of subwoofers has also proven to be very effective.

Avoid sitting on symmetry axes. The golden ratio (1:1.618) is a good starting point.

If you cannot or do not want to change the listening position (and possibly the speaker position), nothing will change.

But all this has nothing to do with the MA 1 calibration system. Please open another thread to ask for advice regarding room treatment, room acoustics, speaker placement and listening position etc.

 

[NeverBetter]

I can't do much at all to change the configuration unfortunately. No, I don't suggest it has anything to do with the MA-1 system.

 

[IamJF]

Thanks. I'm not sure I understand the idea of adding more LF boost. The room is very small...8x9ft. I was under the impression that physically there was no way to address LF without massive amounts of absorbtion to the point of greatly diminished returns in things like room ergonomics. I mean, as it is now the low end is problematic so in my mind pumping more LF into the situation is not going to resolve the issue. I don't know for sure. That's just my feeling. As it is, I'm not calibrating my 150 pair for a flat LF...there's a hole at around 80hz! So it isn't flat. With MA-1 I filled that 80hz in a few db.

I could get a bigger computer monitor. There's 10cm either side of my monitor to the speakers. So I could find a monitor to fill out and extra 20cm.

With massive absorption you can get resonances shorter - but it's extremely hard to resolve them completely (and I tried, up to 80cm and more of absorption on a complete wall). It's a "geometrical" problem, you need to solve it geometrical. In your case change speaker/listening position and/or add a subwoofer which is positioned so it doesn't suffer the problem (quite possible!).
Your room doesn't look very problematic at low frequencies - no brutal spikes and >+10dB resonances, just the big dip from cancellation. That's for sure solveable but you need to change things in your setup or buy a sub.

With a dip in your response in that range and linear bass your speaker sound thin compared to the rest of the world. Of course you can get used to that but I always get better translating mixes with some bass boost, at least 4dB. MA1 also has a little boost by default. You can also do some high frequency roll off - google Harman curve or house curve, there are a few variants. And then dial in what translates best for you and your room.
Ah, and don't fill the hole with EQ!

You can fill the gaps for testing but a big 4k screen is beneficial for the workflow anyways, not very expensive nowadays and hey - it helps acoustics!

p.s.: When you put your speakers completely to the back wall and angle the corner absorber a little more so they also "contact" the baffle of the speaker you get closer to an "in wall" setup. Give it a try! When you can shift your valley to higher frequencies you can at least hear 60Hz properly, this helps.

 

[NeverBetter]

With massive absorption you can get resonances shorter - but it's extremely hard to resolve them completely (and I tried, up to 80cm and more of absorption on a complete wall). It's a "geometrical" problem, you need to solve it geometrical. In your case change speaker/listening position and/or add a subwoofer which is positioned so it doesn't suffer the problem (quite possible!).
Your room doesn't look very problematic at low frequencies - no brutal spikes and >+10dB resonances, just the big dip from cancellation. That's for sure solveable but you need to change things in your setup or buy a sub.

With a dip in your response in that range and linear bass your speaker sound thin compared to the rest of the world. Of course you can get used to that but I always get better translating mixes with some bass boost, at least 4dB. MA1 also has a little boost by default. You can also do some high frequency roll off - google Harman curve or house curve, there are a few variants. And then dial in what translates best for you and your room.
Ah, and don't fill the hole with EQ!

You can fill the gaps for testing but a big 4k screen is beneficial for the workflow anyways, not very expensive nowadays and hey - it helps acoustics!

p.s.: When you put your speakers completely to the back wall and angle the corner absorber a little more so they also "contact" the baffle of the speaker you get closer to an "in wall" setup. Give it a try! When you can shift your valley to higher frequencies you can at least hear 60Hz properly, this helps.

Thanks. I still have to admit I don't get the actual physics of adding a sub to fill out an 80hz dip. The room is problematic because of its size and where I am compelled to locate the listening position etc. I HAVE to be able to access the window and to open it...I have to sit roughly where I sit. I just don't have the wiggle room to be choosey about room setup. So to my way of thinking if the low end (80hz dip for example) is problematic and it is not solvable by pumping more 80hz/ low end into that dip with EQ (I can understand this) then how is pumping more low end into the room with a sub any different? The 80hz dip in the listening position is because of the room, listening position and because the room physically can not deal with low end. Won't the result be more or less the same if I implement a sub?

Just a few general responses to some of your ideas...the speakers do not sound thin to me. They are an improvement over my earlier HS8's by a long way. I have a lot of absorbtion, maybe almost up to a meter on most of the back wall. Sides are 30cm roughly I guess and front corners. I know about Harman Curve, at least in terms of setting up some of the headphones I use. 4k screen, yep I can get a bigger one easily. But I can't get the speakers all the way to the back wall and angling the corner absorbers further would be very difficult but I could do it by re-cutting the wood etc. Big job.

But anyway, if you could explain to me how a sub physically could help to fill out that 80hz then yes, sure, after saving up the $$$ eventually I have no probs with buying a sub. At this point though I haven't really read how that works in such a small room. In fact I've read the opposite.

 

[Ellebob]

Because of what are called room modes, peaks and dips of bass occur in a room. Placement of seating, speaker and subs are important. If you place your sub in the correct location you can probably correct that dip. Sometimes it is easier to move the seating to place the listener in a better spot. Every situation is different. The best location for mids and highs are not the best location for bass. Even with speakers that can play full range and go to 20hz a sub is still recommended so that it can be placed in a good location for better bass response. EQ like the MA-1 can reduce peaks but can't fix dips if caused by room modes.

 

[IamJF]

But anyway, if you could explain to me how a sub physically could help to fill out that 80hz then yes, sure, after saving up the $$$ eventually I have no probs with buying a sub. At this point though I haven't really read how that works in such a small room. In fact I've read the opposite.

There is a lot of nonsense out there about small rooms and bass response.
Your dip comes from at least one cancellation from your speaker with a boundary - floor, backwall, ceiling, side walls ... you have to move your speaker to find out. (the frequency of the cancellation changes with the distance). When your critical boundary is the floor - a woofer sitting directly on the floor instead of 1m height will not have the dip in the 80Hz area, instead way higher and out of it's working range. When it's the side wall - put the woofer at one of the side walls and you can solve it too. You can place a subwoofer way more freely and the chance to find a working position is way higher.
As @Ellebob writes - the position of the main speakers is very rarely the right position for linear bass response.

You can try and move your speakers to positions where your sub could be and measure the response. When you find something fairly linear buying a sub would be a good idea.
And be creative - in my room the best position for one sub is in the corner! 2 subs - center front and back wall.

 

[NeverBetter]

Ok thanks a lot. It'll be some time before I can afford a sub. But I get what you are saying and have no probs subbing up down the road at some point.