New Magico M7 speakers

[Sokel]

What makes them work like that (apart from the tweeter quality) is probably the high x-over,a tested SLP champion for example (for it's size) ATC SCM150ASL Pro,with it's 117db continuous goes up to 3.5Khz.
The above Quested is even higher,at 4.5Khz (dome mid helps probably) .

 

[thewas]

Look above!

Would like to see response and distortion measurements of it at that level , on the other hand we shouldn't forget that most music spectrum is decreasing above 1 kHz so the woofers are usually the limitations there. Also during sweeps at constant level usually the protection is activated at the tweeter region, see for example here.

 

[Sokel]

Would like to see response and distortion measurements of it at that level , on the other hand we shouldn't forget that most music spectrum is decreasing above 1 kHz so the woofers are usually the limitations there. Also during sweeps at constant level usually the protection is activated at the tweeter region, see for example here.

Quested are brutal,if you get the change to listen to them with high DR material can get scary.

In general,from what I have seen around as we go above the 120db mark (not PA) prices rise exponentially.
They seem tied to the overall voice coil size,I used to add them once to see if I can predict the price and I wasn't far (at least with mains studio monitors and honest hi-fi) .

 

[thewas]

As said I would be happy to see measurements of a non waveguided 1" tweeter making significantly more than 120 dB but till now I haven't seen any which also matches well the theory of the air and coupling non-linearities at such levels.

 

[sigbergaudio]

As said I would be happy to see measurements of a non waveguided 1" tweeter making significantly more than 120 dB but till now I haven't seen any which also matches well the theory of the air and coupling non-linearities at such levels.

As mentioned above, music isn't linear in energy across the frequency range. So with weighted pink noise (simulating music) you get a better understanding of what the overall system is capable.

If you stand in front of a speaker playing music with a SPL meter showing 120dB, there's not 120dB output from the tweeter.

 

[Sokel]

As said I would be happy to see measurements of a non waveguided 1" tweeter making significantly more than 120 dB but till now I haven't seen any which also matches well the theory of the air and coupling non-linearities at such levels.

Amongst the nice tweeters around what I could find is ScanSpeak Ellipticor:

Test Bench: The New Ellipticor D3404/552000 Tweeter from Scan-Speak

This edition of Test Bench focuses on the Scan-Speak Ellipticor D3404/552000 dome neodymium motor tweeter. Overall, the D3404/552000 is like a big elongated 28 mm diameter tweeter. For a motor system, Scan-Speak basically scaled up their currently successful Air-Circ tweeter motor with 10...

audioxpress.com

At a high x-over as the examples I gave above I would expect it to follow at high SPL.
Morel is also famous about it's high SPL (peak).

With music though,for a tweeter to reach 130db SPL the woofers much reach 150db at least.
So that's probably how they spec them.

The claimed 127db Genelec 8381A also uses a 1" dome tweeter,waveguided of course.

(and no one in the right mind expect those to be continuous,apart from ATC with it's huge VC )

 

[sigbergaudio]

Amongst the nice tweeters around what I could find is ScanSpeak Ellipticor:


View attachment 364821

Test Bench: The New Ellipticor D3404/552000 Tweeter from Scan-Speak

This edition of Test Bench focuses on the Scan-Speak Ellipticor D3404/552000 dome neodymium motor tweeter. Overall, the D3404/552000 is like a big elongated 28 mm diameter tweeter. For a motor system, Scan-Speak basically scaled up their currently successful Air-Circ tweeter motor with 10...

audioxpress.com

At a high x-over as the examples I gave above I would expect it to follow at high SPL.
Morel is also famous about it's high SPL (peak).

With music though,for a tweeter to reach 130db SPL the woofers much reach 150db at least.
So that's probably how they spec them.

The claimed 127db Genelec 8381A also uses a 1" dome tweeter,waveguided of course.

(and no one in the right mind expect those to be continuous,apart from ATC with it's huge VC )

Our Manta is rated at 122dB (weighted pink noise @1m per speaker) with a waveguided 1" silk dome. At that point the amplifier for the 12" woofer ran out of steam, so even at this level it still wasn't the tweeter limiting the SPL. But this varies with the design I guess. The tweeter is also crossed over relatively high (2500hz).

 

[Blockader]

Tweeter size doesn't have much to do with it,for example have a look at one of the Genelec big boys (1234A) :

View attachment 364805

25mm tweeter for a speaker that passes the 120db mark (125db actually).

No dome tweeter in the world can exceed the 100 dB mark up to 20khz with a continuous signal due to heat buildup in the tweeter's coil. A tweeter with a sensitivity of 90 dB is about 1% efficient, meaning that out of 100 watts, 99% is converted into heat, and only 1% is used for sound production.

The 125 dB highlighted by some speakers does not indicate that the drivers can put out 125 dB at every frequency. The maximum SPL of speakers is calculated differently, as outlined in the CTA 2034 standard.

A continuous high-frequency SPL of 100 dB is typically within the realm of compression drivers.
From BMS 4508ND:

The reason is straightforward: compression drivers are more efficient. Note the efficiency in the specifications above. They manage heat buildup more effectively and show higher sensitivity, 112 dB for 1 watt, in this case. This is why, in PA ystems, dome tweeters are almost never used. Instead, ribbon tweeters or compression drivers are commonly used due to their superior sensitivity and power handling.

Amir's measurements also prove that:

Genelec S360 were the only speakers tested where at 106db sine sweep, the limiter did not kick in.

 

[Sokel]

No dome tweeter in the world can exceed the 100 dB mark up to 20khz with a continuous signal due to heat buildup in the tweeter's coil.

Is the above Ellipticor's chart wrong?
I thought of audioexpress as honest in general.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Waveguided dome tweeter @1m.

 

[Blockader]

Is the above Ellipticor's chart wrong?
I thought audioexpress as honest in general.

I can't see max SPL vs frequency measurement there, can you?

 

[Sokel]

I can't see max SPL vs frequency measurement there, can you?

Response and distortion at 112-115db from 2Khz to 20Khz:

and it seems that not even the max but the useful.

 

[thewas]

As mentioned above, music isn't linear in energy across the frequency range. So with weighted pink noise (simulating music) you get a better understanding of what the overall system is capable.

If you stand in front of a speaker playing music with a SPL meter showing 120dB, there's not 120dB output from the tweeter.

Exactly, as I had written above.

 

[thewas]

Amongst the nice tweeters around what I could find is ScanSpeak Ellipticor:

I don't see there anything at above 120 dB.

 

[Blockader]

Response and distortion at 112-115db from 2Khz to 20Khz:

View attachment 364834

and it seems that not even the max but the useful.

Dome tweeters can handle up to 110 dB(maybe even more, check the max power handling and sensitivity, you can calculate the short term max SPL peak) during short peaks without any issues. The reason they cannot sustain levels beyond 100 dB(100-106db depending on the waveguide) with continuous signals is not due to insufficient xmax or lack of power handling. Instead, it's because the heat buildup(due to low efficiency of the driver) can melt the voice coil when the tweeter is exposed to very high wattage. Ideally, a limiter should activate to prevent this from occurring before any damage happens.

Waveguides can increase the efficiency of a dome driver a bit, but they can never match with the sensitivity of compression drivers and 120db is definitely compression driver territory.

 

[thewas]

Response and distortion at 112-115db from 2Khz to 20Khz:

View attachment 364834

and it seems that not even the max but the useful.

Please read the text of the measurement, it was done at a level of 94 dB at 1 meter, the 110 dB is a result of him measuring it at 10 cm distance.

 

[Sokel]

Dome tweeters can handle up to 110 dB(maybe even more, check the max power handling and sensitivity, you can calculate the short term max SPL peak) during short peaks without any issues. The reason they cannot sustain levels beyond 100 dB(100-106db depending on the waveguide) with continuous signals is not due to insufficient xmax or lack of power handling. Instead, it's because the heat buildup(due to low efficiency of the driver) can melt the voice coil when the tweeter is exposed to very high wattage. Ideally, a limiter should activate to prevent this from occurring before any damage happens.

Waveguides can increase the efficiency of a dome driver a bit, but they can never match with the sensitivity of compression drivers and 120db is definitely compression driver territory.

I don't see there anything at above 120 dB.

Totally agreed with all the above but the question was about speakers total SPL,not only the tweeter's.
Specifically how can a high SPL speaker like the Magico can get away with such a small tweeter with a tiny waveguide.

And it surely can.

 

[thewas]

Specifically how can a high SPL speaker like the Magico can get away with such a small tweeter with a tiny waveguide.

Simply because most SPL statements are a big mess being done with non stated and differing standards. Sure it will play very loud, but as said for several reasons 120 dB or above with a 1" dome tweeter without a horn/WG at one meter are not really feasible.

 

[ctrl]

Here's one with about the same size tweeter (1.5") hitting the 130db (!) mark:

If the measurement conditions are not specified, this information should be ignored or used only as a very rough guide.
There are various standards for measurements of max SPL, max power (long term, short),...

What they all have in common is that they usually suit the manufacturer very well (not surprising, as the industry is heavily involved in their development).

For example, "weighted pink noise" is often used as test signal by the standards.
For tweeter additionally a high-pass filter is used. This allows absurdly high "long-term power" SPL to be achieved by tweeters.

The manufacturer Scan-Speak handles this in an exemplary manner and provides details of the power ratings:

So for a more than 30 years (still superb) old tweeter model D2905/970000 it says:

The tweeter has about [email protected] and has about 6 Ohm resistance, so we get 2.83V²/6Ohm = 1.3W at 90dB. For 100h RMS power we get 90 + 20*log(225/1.3) = 135dB*** and long term power SPL 90 + 20*log(460/1.3) = 141dB ***

*** only with the specified test signal. For example, a white noise signal will destroy the tweeter at 225W long before 100 hours are reached. And for example, the SPL at 10kHz is always way below the 135dB or 141dB, same for 1kHz (see below).

But keep in mind the measurement conditions: weighted pink noise + HP BW2 at 2.8kHz!
Pink noise sound pressure level drops -10dB per decade. Dependent on the used weighting it might lessens a little more. So a least the test signal is -10dB at 10kHz compared to 1kHz.
And a second order BW high pass filter @2.8kHz is 18dB down at 1kHz. So the SPL of the test signal at 1kHz is -18dB down.

 

[Sokel]

Please read the text of the measurement, it was done at a level of 94 dB at 1 meter, the 110 dB is a result of him measuring it at 10 cm distance.

I did read it,but I also calculated it's specs.
At 95db/m sensitivity it needs a mere 25 watt to reach the chart and it's max spec is:

I don't see why it would not go there except they're lying to our faces.