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Value and luxury

BobbyTimmons

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1) I don't equate hand-crafting, use of "different" materials, and different appearances as necessarily having any direct bearing on improvements in performance.
2) In audio products, tests and measurements bear this out; I have seen precious few hand-made luxury audio items that have performance that is better than average. In fact, if one takes into account the high prices of tube equipment, the performance is not even up to par, much less average.
3) I therefore reject the notion that expensive audio products have measurable performance improvements, or that they have those improvements very often. Older McIntosh and present-day Magico are exceptions, but exceptions prove the rule.
4) I don't often have any interest in examining luxury cars, but from what little I have seen, they are no longer "handcrafted". There are several posts in this thread which echo that opinion.

In essence, I'm saying that luxury items very rarely provide advanced performance ... in autos, in fashion accessories or in audio. I believe @Sokel may, perhaps, have some small insight into the situation.

More's the pity, but that's the way I see it.

Jim
Luxury cars like Rolls Royce are still handmade, that's their selling point. It's why people buy them instead of other cars. It's not functionality which you are paying for, it's being handmade. That is luxury.

Ferraris are especially valuable because they are only allowed to sell bottom of the range to new customers. You aren't allowed to buy their higher end models until after you've bought their lower end models. You aren't paying for performance when you buy a Ferrari, you are paying for exclusivity.

These car companies charge $1000 for a key fob or for their owners manual which isn't any different than paying $1000 for a hi-fi cable. The owners manual is just printed paper. The key fob is just a key fob with the logo of the luxury car.
 
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FrantzM

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BMW. Yeah I know it stands for "Burn My Wallet".
No acronyms for Mercedes-Benz? They deserve one... Most of their cars are ... PoS.. I own a G-Wagon.. Yeah! I know..

Magico could be an outlier in some ways. The models that have been measured shine in performance... Still $500K...
And yes, Genelec has many speakers that could outperform the Magico between 1/6th up to 1/10 the price. One could argus that a 8361 + W371 Pair would match at the very least and likely (IMO) surpass this particular (or any other) Magico, in all objective aspects of sound reproduction for less than $40,000.oo including GLM ..

The interesting thing about audio products is that their owners do , strongly believe that what they own is superior or at least they claim they believe ... I've heard too many systems that on the face or ear of it, only a deaf person would consider hifi but costing several hundreds thousands of dollars...

Just read some other posts, in particular this one from @Jim Taylor


1) I don't equate hand-crafting, use of "different" materials, and different appearances as necessarily having any direct bearing on improvements in performance.
2) In audio products, tests and measurements bear this out; I have seen precious few hand-made luxury audio items that have performance that is better than average. In fact, if one takes into account the high prices of tube equipment, the performance is not even up to par, much less average.
3) I therefore reject the notion that expensive audio products have measurable performance improvements, or that they have those improvements very often. Older McIntosh and present-day Magico are exceptions, but exceptions prove the rule.
4) I don't often have any interest in examining luxury cars, but from what little I have seen, they are no longer "handcrafted". There are several posts in this thread which echo that opinion.

In essence, I'm saying that luxury items very rarely provide advanced performance ... in autos, in fashion accessories or in audio. I believe @Sokel may, perhaps, have some small insight into the situation.

More's the pity, but that's the way I see it, IT IS.

Jim
I agree with him 99.9%, not 100% ... for that I need to apply a bit of editorial power to the post :D.

Happy holidays!

Peace.
 

FrantzM

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Because this is a audio related site ?
Some of us do roll our eyes at expensive purses and luxury cars, but in many cases such as a Ferrari, there is actual engineering which is measurable in the handling and top speed.

When expensive audio products actually produce superior measurements, we may roll our eye at the prices, but we respect the performance.
On the car thing, I'd like to have the opinion of experts... Calling @Frank Dernie !!! .. about the level of "Engineering" in a Ferrari? I would like, actually any of those expensive sports Car, as compared to something as pedestrian as a Nissan Z... Seriously. Does a Ferrari handle better than a Nissan Z? Or goes faster?
The Bugatti seems to reside in a very high plateau of objective speed performance but what about their handling? And their reliability? I would think that owners are very discret about that aspect... It is hard to swallow.. $3,000,000 later, even if you are a billionaire...

Happy holidays!

Peace.
 

JayGilb

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On the car thing, I'd like to have the opinion of experts... Calling @Frank Dernie !!! .. about the level of "Engineering" in a Ferrari? I would like, actually any of those expensive sports Car, as compared to something as pedestrian as a Nissan Z... Seriously. Does a Ferrari handle better than a Nissan Z? Or goes faster?
The Bugatti seems to reside in a very high plateau of objective speed performance but what about their handling? And their reliability? I would think that owners are very discret about that aspect... It is hard to swallow.. $3,000,000 later, even if you are a billionaire...

Happy holidays!

Peace.
I referred to Ferrari only because it was used by the OP in his opening statement.
 

FrantzM

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I referred to Ferrari only because it was used by the OP in his opening statement.
No issue.. Wanted someone with expertise to chime... Replace Ferrari by any luxury "sports car"

Happy holidays!

Peace.
 

Mart68

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various old episodes of 'Top Gear' would seem to indicate that modern Ferraris have very good handling.

Wouldn't want one as they are just too flash. Okay maybe a 'California' would be okay. If I ever strike oil in the backyard.
 

Keith_W

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No acronyms for Mercedes-Benz? They deserve one... Most of their cars are ... PoS.. I own a G-Wagon.. Yeah! I know..

Money Envy Reliably Causes Every Derogatory Expletive to Surface
Most Eccentric Rich Capitalists Enjoy Driving Expensive Sedans

On the car thing, I'd like to have the opinion of experts... Calling @Frank Dernie !!! .. about the level of "Engineering" in a Ferrari? I would like, actually any of those expensive sports Car, as compared to something as pedestrian as a Nissan Z... Seriously. Does a Ferrari handle better than a Nissan Z? Or goes faster?

Going fast and outhandling a Nissan Z isn't the point of a Ferrari. The speed and handling of a Ferrari is only the marketing :) Most people who buy Ferraris don't even use them. The ultra expensive ones are stored in climate controlled garages. If they get used, the whole point is to roll up in style. Park outside nightclubs. Cruise down Monaco slowly. If there is no buxom blonde in the passenger seat, you only need to open the door to get one. These guys don't care that a Nissan Z might be faster or might corner better.

So we can not compare a Ferrari to audiophile cable. Will your audiophile cable get you a new girl in bed every night? Didn't think so ...
 

TankTop

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FERRARI = Frighteningly Expensive Repairs Required At Regular Intervals
Most people who own a Ferrari don’t think or care about expensive maintenance or repairs. Furthermore as a percentage of the cost repairs aren’t that expensive and these cars generally aren’t driven much. Most people who comment on extremely high performance cars don’t have first hand experience and are simply regurgitating other secondhand information. That said if I was in the position I’d get a 911 GT3, most reliable car ever made with the highest resale value.
 

copperblue

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Lotus are still building cars. Lots of trouble, usually serious ;)
Goods confer status upon the purchaser, and luxury goods are generally priced to protect the brand image accordingly.
Once one is within one's own level of diminishing returns why waste time worrying about what other people think?
We live in an incredible golden age of great, affordable audio gear, enjoy!
 

fpitas

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Mart68

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. Most people who comment on extremely high performance cars don’t have first hand experience and are simply regurgitating other secondhand information. .
I used to rent out support vehicles to the Ferrari owner's club. Their chief mechanic advised me never to buy one as 'They break down all the f-king time.'

They were mostly the vintage ones though.
 

fredoamigo

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I used to rent out support vehicles to the Ferrari owner's club. Their chief mechanic advised me never to buy one as 'They break down all the f-king time.'

They were mostly the vintage ones though.
No, it's not a legend


 

FrantzM

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Money Envy Reliably Causes Every Derogatory Expletive to Surface
Most Eccentric Rich Capitalists Enjoy Driving Expensive Sedans



Going fast and outhandling a Nissan Z isn't the point of a Ferrari. The speed and handling of a Ferrari is only the marketing :) Most people who buy Ferraris don't even use them. The ultra expensive ones are stored in climate controlled garages. If they get used, the whole point is to roll up in style. Park outside nightclubs. Cruise down Monaco slowly. If there is no buxom blonde in the passenger seat, you only need to open the door to get one. These guys don't care that a Nissan Z might be faster or might corner better.

So we can not compare a Ferrari to audiophile cable. Will your audiophile cable get you a new girl in bed every night? Didn't think so ...

For a long while I believed Benz cars were reliable .. That was until I got mine and ... a bummer..

The question remains: Do Ferrari handle well? Do they perform well? Honest questions.

I don't mind a person spending her/they/his money anyway they want. Don't mind enjoying my bits of luxury from time-to-time meself...No envy or negative feelings there... I object to the rationale, that because it cost more, it is better.
I would say that the marrket does react to these issues of unreliability. The unreliability issues of MB and other luxury cars have become memes ... This is the Internet after all, and viral videos can destroy reputations after a few (millions) clicks... I believe they are taking this seriously and the results are there (or not??) as seen in this article by the drive: BMW Among Top 3 Most Reliable Brands In Consumer Reports Ranking for First Time

As for my audiophile cables, my (subjective Audio fora) friends will always congratulate me for my purchases.. Who need more ? :D :rolleyes:

Happy holidays!

Peace.
 

TankTop

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I used to rent out support vehicles to the Ferrari owner's club. Their chief mechanic advised me never to buy one as 'They break down all the f-king time.'

They were mostly the vintage ones though.
I was in the car business for 20 years, everything breaks. Ferrari’s are expensive, hand made and some are lemons, some years are better than others as with anything. Like I said before Porsche 911 is the car to buy, highest reliability out of all vehicles manufactured historically forever. I know a lot of Corvette owners that track their car, track day Sunday, and in the shop on Monday. Porsche 911, track day, Sunday and commute to work Monday through Friday and back on the track on Sunday, rinse repeat
 

fredoamigo

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I was in the car business for 20 years, everything breaks. Ferrari’s are expensive, hand made and some are lemons, some years are better than others as with anything. Like I said before Porsche 911 is the car to buy, highest reliability out of all vehicles manufactured historically forever. I know a lot of Corvette owners that track their car, track day Sunday, and in the shop on Monday. Porsche 911, track day, Sunday and commute to work Monday through Friday and back on the track on Sunday, rinse repeat
I totally agree with you about the 911, it's the car I've had the most fun with behind the wheel...on the other hand, solid design engineering and rock-solid reliability.
 

Frank Dernie

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On the car thing, I'd like to have the opinion of experts... Calling @Frank Dernie !!! .. about the level of "Engineering" in a Ferrari? I would like, actually any of those expensive sports Car, as compared to something as pedestrian as a Nissan Z... Seriously. Does a Ferrari handle better than a Nissan Z? Or goes faster?
The Bugatti seems to reside in a very high plateau of objective speed performance but what about their handling? And their reliability? I would think that owners are very discret about that aspect... It is hard to swallow.. $3,000,000 later, even if you are a billionaire...

Happy holidays!

Peace.
I’m no expert on road cars but certainly the early days of each company reflected the attitude of the founder.
Ferrari himself made no secret of the fact that his road cars was a way to get rich people to fund his racing and whilst engines and gearboxes were probably excellent and styling important not much like build quality was important or handling in the non-race versions.

Porsche and Lotus both leant on racing heritage making light cars with good handling in the case of Lotus, less so early semi-trailing arm Porsches which need a lot of skill.
Bugatti also started with light elegant beautifully made race bred cars.
Ferraris got better later (probably after Enzo was gone) with good handling and overall better cars from the mid 1990s. Ironically the really valuable ones are the older ones…

”Sports car “ makers without racing heritage majored more on top speed and acceleration for marketing and tended to make pretty, nice sounding but heavy cars which impress some but have never appealed to me.
Bugatti today are so heavy they aren’t really “sports cars” as I have always understood the term, only being really good in a straight line, which is fine for their likely clientele.

Personally simple and light is what is best for real performance but fancy and gadget filled is the what many purchasers want.

Today, the only makers still making what I consider “real” sportscars are Porsche and Ferrari, they have the best engines IME but to pander to the wealth market they offer IMO some pretty hideous options and have got a bit big and heavy.
 

Frank Dernie

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Most people who own a Ferrari don’t think or care about expensive maintenance or repairs. Furthermore as a percentage of the cost repairs aren’t that expensive and these cars generally aren’t driven much. Most people who comment on extremely high performance cars don’t have first hand experience and are simply regurgitating other secondhand information. That said if I was in the position I’d get a 911 GT3, most reliable car ever made with the highest resale value.
I tend to agree, comments are made by people who have second hand experience often coloured by their own bias.

Both Ferrari and Porsche have realised that making cars more expensive sells better because it is largely a fashion business so their cars are relatively much more expensive and fancy than they were 25 years ago.
Most are probaly sold for posing and by the time you can afford one on the limit cornering may not be high on the list of priorities but bragging rights about top speed, 0-60 times and power, which are actually not especially important in a sports car, are.

As an owner of many sports cars over the last 50 years, including older Ferrari and Porsche models my experience was that the reliability was similar, Ferrari engines and gearboxes better than Porsche and pre 993 series 911s with semi trailing arm suspension had lift-off rear toe-out which made them challenging for unskilled drivers but very rewarding for drivers who got it. On balance Ferrari have been slightly more reliable than Porsche for me.

Nowadays road conditions here in the UK make sports cars only interesting for track days.

Having a sports car or SUV for driving around a town is the definition of automotive stupidity IMO.
 
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