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Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3
- Thread starter amirm
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I very much admire your integrity as well as your knowledge and skill.Seems that if you want to create a riot in the streets of ASR, all you have to do is show a non-ruler flat response of Neumann KH80 DSP professional monitor (speaker). Not knowing that, that is precisely what I did in my first review of KH80 DSP:
This was one of the earliest speakers I measured with the Klippel Near-field scanner. So naturally (or not), there were a lot of suspicions that it could actually recreate anechoic chamber measurements such as provided by the company:
After what seemed like a hundred pages and numerous attacks from every corner on validity of measurements including me not even being dressed right to measure speakers, I decided to test a second KH80 DSP monitor sample that another member was kind enough to offer. Was that the end of it? Of course not. As I said, if the measurements were not ruler flat, folks were not satisfied and this is what we had:
A sin was committed once more with the same dip around 80 Hz or so. Protests ensued and library books burned in streets with assertion that ASR measurements were flat wrong.
After some 25 pages of posts, folks seemed to forget about the fight and thread went dormant. Until... we heard back from Neumann which had asked Klippel Germany to measure an identical sample to what they had measured in anechoic chamber. While there were some differences between the two measurements, they were closer to each other than mine was. So folks went for the jugular this time. Nothing short of repenting on my part and accepting that my measurements were bogus would satisfy. The proof as they said, was right there.
When someone kindly suggested to fund the purchase of a third sample, I decided to not make it the community's problem and purchased that myself. Meanwhile @GuyLayfield reached out privately to me offering that we work together to see what is going on. Suspicion quickly went after the temperature difference for when I tested mine (in winter) and theirs (temperature controlled at 21 degrees C). Guy showed me a couple of useful slides from Klippel indicating changes in speaker parameters based on temperature:
View attachment 72743
View attachment 72744
Meanwhile my sample arrived and measured it. And what do you know, the low frequency dip had disappeard:
View attachment 72746
We still had to verify the problem was temperature. So Guy put a unit in the fridge overnight and then made measurements in the morning every 3 minutes as the speaker and its components warmed up. Here are his results, normalized to 21 degree C (black line):
View attachment 72747
As we see in the bottom blue line, lower temp most definitely created the dip around 80 Hz and gradually disappeared as the speaker warmed up. This then showed that my measurements are indeed accurate but were simply impacted by the lower temperature at the time.
Guy, knowing you all, wanted to still investigate some variations in measurements, some of which were also in Klippel Germany measurements. As it happens, they have measurements for each speaker sold and that included my sample. So we set out to try to reduces differences.
The guilty party here appeared to be the microphone protection cage that I use. This is a sensor shroud around the mic with micrswitches that detect any impact to any object (e.g. speaker) and instantly shuts down the system. It avoids banging an expensive microphone against an expensive speaker! Quite a while ago I had noticed that it was causing some comb filtering due to reflections. I experimented with absorption around it and got it under control. Still, we thought maybe it is at fault.
So I took out the cage and sadly as soon as you do that, all alignment of the system is gone. So while I was at it, I re-adjusted everything better than ever before, and even worked on optimizing the signal processing for least amount of error. Here is that measurement:
View attachment 72749
Yes, it looks the same! It is a bit flatter in bass but I think it has tiny variations here and there. According to Guy, we are now with +-0.6 dB from their measurements.
We don't know if the variations are because my measurements are wrong, or theirs. There is no gold reference here.
Frankly, I am sick of it at this point so told Guy that we are done and I should just post the results. People need to remember that every measurement system has variability and there is fair bit of that between anechoic chambers as well. For the purposes of evaluating speakers, what we have is more than good enough and far, far better than anything any reviewer is producing.
Importantly the moment the speaker is put in a room, nothing remotely flat comes out of it. So we need to keep that in perspective.
EDIT: by request, here is the newer beamwidth measurement I have been publishing for other speakers:
View attachment 74357
Conclusions
The main variable in our measurements not quite matching Neumann's was temperature. Whether this impacted just this speaker or the others, I don't know. If I get some time (yeh right), I will go back and remeasure a few of the other ones I still have and see what difference there may be. Come this winter, I will heat up the measurement room to get it closer to spring weather at least. Fortunately it never gets that cold here and hopefully we will find that other speakers are not affected as much.
Beside temperature, I have also fine tuned the system, using averaging for example to reduce noise level, deploying more optimal parameters to get the high frequencies right, etc. These have been in place for months so the bulk of what we have measured are accurate as they also enjoy warmer temperatures.
@MZKM has a new score for this speaker which he will post. New spin data is enclosed.
Be on notice that I am not measuring this speaker again so don't even think about asking me to do that. As it is, I have to now rip the system apart again and put the cage back on it and re-align it all.
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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
As you can tell I am quite grumpy because of this ordeal. Fortunately it is not something where a few hundred dollars won't fix. So please donate what you can using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
Anybody who could share his choice in this respect?
HarmonicTHD
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I bought the KH750 because the KH80 with the built in DSP are meant to be calibrated by the MA1.
Otherwise one could get the older non-DSP KH120 or some entirely different speakers and save the money for the built-in DSP when using them with Dirac or other EQ systems.
You can try out a trial version of Dirac. If you find Dirac is working good for you, you can use it.
I used different EQ solutions over time, own a Dirac license, but never got along with it. So i use the 750+MA1 now and like the result better. Also i prefer using the built in DSP without needing additional hard- and software.
Big BUT: Dirac has evolved further since i last tried it. So maybe the results are better now. I don't know. It is more flexible, for sure.
I think purchasing anything except a 750 would be a mistake. They are designed to work together.
My understanding is that the MA1 system is intended for use with a set of speakers mainly for room calibration. Amir's test didn't involve using MA1 or any other calibration so, looking at them as just speakers, they have a remarkably flat response above about 60Hz.
In my 5.1 setup I use the Audyssey system in my Denon amp to do room correction. I use a separate sub woofer crossed over at 60 Hz and we're very pleased with the system.
HarmonicTHD
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Correct MA1 is for room correction.
Amir (Klippel) results are quasi anechoic results, meaning the room influence on (any) the measured speaker is mathematically removed. That counts for every speaker he measures. But once you put any speaker in a room the room influence is unavoidable.
Yes Audyssey is also for room correction. I use it for my living room driving KEFs. Hard to say what is better MA1 or Audyssey without facts. However if you use Audyssey you can save yourself the money which you pay for the built in DSP and either get KH120 (also flat but without DSP) or get some small non SAM (no DSP) from Genelec.
I am just saying. Of course get what you love, nothing wrong.
Well, the kh80, even with the built in dsp, is cheaper than the kh120 and comparable Genelecs and performs at least as well. IMHO these are all excellent speakers, but really need a separate sub woofer.
Hey all!
I am currently performing tests with my KH 750 + KH 120 and KH 80. I of course am using MA1 for the room correction. My home studio/office is 12 x 12 x 8 and is well treated with acoustic panels and bass traps (Roxul). As of one week of testing, I can honestly say that after 2 weeks of extensive testing that I plan on selling my KH 120's. I will provide additional feedback once my testing period ends (2 more weeks from today/30 days total). Needless to say, I highly recommend the KH 80 + KH 750 setup for (treated) rooms that are on the smaller side.
I am currently performing tests with my KH 750 + KH 120 and KH 80. I of course am using MA1 for the room correction. My home studio/office is 12 x 12 x 8 and is well treated with acoustic panels and bass traps (Roxul). As of one week of testing, I can honestly say that after 2 weeks of extensive testing that I plan on selling my KH 120's. I will provide additional feedback once my testing period ends (2 more weeks from today/30 days total). Needless to say, I highly recommend the KH 80 + KH 750 setup for (treated) rooms that are on the smaller side.
I use KH80s for more than 4 years. Firstly I used them with KH805 subs. Six months ago I changed to KH750 and use MA1 for alignment. I love 80s/750 so much and I think this combination could be on top of my bust buy list. I won't recommend KH80 without KH750 and MA1, even if KH80s are very good mini monitors.
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@HQY or @Carb0n12 or anyone else who has the KH80 and KH750 combo please comment on the max loudness? Is it enough if you like to jam/push it sometimes?
Also, any comments on the 'small speaker' sense with the subwoofer? If you are playing loud with the subwoofer does it come across boxy or small in the low mids or any other negatives?
I am planning on using these for nearfield monitoring only, for music production at ~1.25 meters (~4ft) in a 6.4 cu meter/225 cu ft room. Music production includes electronics/synths and full range kit. Based on the published 93db @2.3 meters for a pair for long term pink noise (not sure if that is the right spl value to look at) these should be pushing 98db at my 1.4 meters as per online distance attenuation calculator. I don't have a phone or spl meter that goes above 88db so I can't measure what I might need for now. Thanks.
Also, any comments on the 'small speaker' sense with the subwoofer? If you are playing loud with the subwoofer does it come across boxy or small in the low mids or any other negatives?
I am planning on using these for nearfield monitoring only, for music production at ~1.25 meters (~4ft) in a 6.4 cu meter/225 cu ft room. Music production includes electronics/synths and full range kit. Based on the published 93db @2.3 meters for a pair for long term pink noise (not sure if that is the right spl value to look at) these should be pushing 98db at my 1.4 meters as per online distance attenuation calculator. I don't have a phone or spl meter that goes above 88db so I can't measure what I might need for now. Thanks.
HarmonicTHD
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They are made for near field music production (mixing and mastering). You should probably master to a certain level anyhow eg 85 dB avg. and as the specs show they give you approximately and additional 20dB headroom for peaks. (Modern music rarely has 20dB dynamics though). And that is even without the sub. The sub will play the lower frequencies and therefore reduce distortion in the KH80 so you can push them even more. I am sure it is somewhere in the Neumann manuals / spec sheets.
I have my combo KH80/750/MA1 for two years now and mixing / mastering on Ableton Live Suite distance ca 1 m … I would never go back. But try it out, you can always return them as SPL requirement is more a personal preference and it is unclear how loud you would require it to be exactly to be happy.
I don’t know the SPL but they can play loud enough for my need. My listening distance is about 2.2 meters and my room is 3.9 meter wide 5.9 meters long and 3.3 meters high. I listen to Mahler, Shostakovich… Michael Jackson and some jazz.
I would suggest that you consider 120's/750 instead if you want it so loud.
That makes sense for a 85dB. That is not so loud. And, I agree with you on the level to mix and master at. I don't find the need for louder levels.
KH80 standby defunctioned after using network setting (Neumann.Control & MA1). I tried to reset the monitors according official instruction but failed. Anyone has this issue as well? Is this a bug? I saw someone mentioned this too. The new firmware doesn't fix this problem. Appreciate comments and instructions.
On the subject of physically small speakers for "far field" listening not "filling the room" or "sounding constrained".
Personally I question if this is a thing. Physically, how would it happen? The directionality measurements are angles so if the listener were further away, the area covered would be proportionally larger, so I don't see how a small speaker with 50 deg horizontal directivity would be discernably different from a large speaker with the same directivity, never mind the reflections which would have a huge confounding impact. There's a difference in how much of a point source the two speakers would be, but is that of any consequence?
Bass extension is obviously an issue with small drivers, but subwoofers have a lot of advantages and that's not what I'm addressing which is the physical size of the speaker.
Sound level is a different discussion. I can certainly believe that larger drivers can produce higher SPL, but if it's loud enough for your taste, what would the difference be in blind tests?
Has anyone done any blind comparisons between small and large comparable speakers at over 2m listening distance?
Personally I question if this is a thing. Physically, how would it happen? The directionality measurements are angles so if the listener were further away, the area covered would be proportionally larger, so I don't see how a small speaker with 50 deg horizontal directivity would be discernably different from a large speaker with the same directivity, never mind the reflections which would have a huge confounding impact. There's a difference in how much of a point source the two speakers would be, but is that of any consequence?
Bass extension is obviously an issue with small drivers, but subwoofers have a lot of advantages and that's not what I'm addressing which is the physical size of the speaker.
Sound level is a different discussion. I can certainly believe that larger drivers can produce higher SPL, but if it's loud enough for your taste, what would the difference be in blind tests?
Has anyone done any blind comparisons between small and large comparable speakers at over 2m listening distance?
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