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Neumann KH80 DSP Monitor Measurements #3

m_g_s_g

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Anyone have insight to the command set to control EQ settings for the KH 80?

I want to do EQ adjustments from a Windows computer and don't mind sending commands from the terminal if that is an option.
I suggest you to take a look at the published protocol info for the TI 1093 (TI_1093_v2.0_Sennheiser_Sound_Control_Protocol).
 

PO3c

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I suggest you to take a look at the published protocol info for the TI 1093 (TI_1093_v2.0_Sennheiser_Sound_Control_Protocol).
Are I'm correct to understand it respond to JSON over HTML?
 

RDoc

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We just got a pair of these to replace the front speakers in our 5.1 system driven by a Denon 4500H. Our room is long, 14'x34'x7.5' with our listening area at one end across the width, so about 11' from the speakers to our ears. Using the Denon Audacity system I did a room correction and set the high pass to 60 Hz (Audacity suggested 40 Hz) to keep it in the linear band.

We are extremely pleased with these, the sound (to our ears) is really clean with mid to upper range instruments very well defined.

When researching these there were a lot of comments about them not being loud enough for "far field" listening. With speaker output level set to 114 db, the amp volume at 0 db gives SPL peaks at our listening position around 88 - 92 db (C weighted) depending on the source. This is more than enough for us since we are mostly listening to Jazz and Classical music.
 

SPT-20

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Hi, I consider getting a pair of these as desktop speakers combined with a subwoofer (looking at the KRK S10G4) but am unsure whether they fit my use case.

I would use them for regular "hi-fi listening", like Jazz/Pop/Orchestra/Electronic, in an untreated room about 20m² / 215ft² big.
I mainly ask because some seem to regard studio monitors like this as "too flat" and tiresome to listen to for longer use.

Can someone give me a hint whether they might be a suitable choice for me?
Thanks
 

wisechoice

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Hi, I consider getting a pair of these as desktop speakers combined with a subwoofer (looking at the KRK S10G4) but am unsure whether they fit my use case.

I would use them for regular "hi-fi listening", like Jazz/Pop/Orchestra/Electronic, in an untreated room about 20m² / 215ft² big.
I mainly ask because some seem to regard studio monitors like this as "too flat" and tiresome to listen to for longer use.

Can someone give me a hint whether they might be a suitable choice for me?
Thanks

A flat speaker response IMO is ideal for longer use, which is why studio professionals can and do use speakers all day long which have as flat a response as possible. In my own experience, having a flat frequency response means fewer weird frequency spikes, which people are can be very sensitive to even without realizing it. That means the benefits of a flat response are two-fold: you can listen at higher overall SPL and hear more detail in the music, and also feel less fatigued because there are fewer sounds and resonances that are (even subtly) out of place.

Some find speakers with a perfectly flat response too bright, but this speaker also has built-in DSP, which means you can dial in a warmer “tilt” to the sound (of just a few dB from the lowest to highest frequencies, in a consistent downward slope), which may take some of the edge off. You need an iPad to use the Neumann app, though, as far as I’m aware.

I think your main challenge with that will be that the integrated DSP in these speakers can only control the frequency range above the crossover with the subwoofer. So you can get a rough balance between the sub and KH80s using an SPL monitor (which is what I’ve done), and/or use software EQ, but getting the right balance with the latter may be somewhat trickier. Also, if you use both software EQ and internal DSP, you will lose some headroom for max SPL. Maybe not enough to matter for desktop use, though.

On the other hand, if you’re not planning to use the DSP (which, if it matters to you, may also undo the benefits or purported benefits of filters, DSD & high sample rates at the playback & DAC stage, as the KH80 is 48kHz internally), you might be better off with a pair of KH120s instead of the KH80s-plus-sub. They’re analog, and you can just use software EQ as needed to control the whole frequency range. You won’t have quite as deep bass extension or impact as with a sub, but it will probably be cleaner and tighter, and still sound excellent for all genres.

If you do go with the sub-plus-KH80s, the most important issue in an untreated room will likely be the placement of the subwoofer, which you can model with REW to minimize room modes.

I should add a disclaimer that I’m far from an expert on any of this, and still have a huge amount to learn, but I do have both the KH80 and a pair of KH120s as part of a 5.1 setup in a small untreated room, and also use the 120s in my untreated office as desktop speakers for video work and electric piano. I notice a difference with the sub for some music, but most of its impact comes from the LFE when I’m watching TV & movies.
 

wisechoice

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A flat speaker response IMO is ideal for longer use, which is why studio professionals can and do use speakers all day long which have as flat a response as possible. In my own experience, having a flat frequency response means fewer random frequency spikes, which people are can be very sensitive to even without realizing it. That means the benefits of a flat response are two-fold: you can listen at higher overall SPL and hear more detail in the music, and also feel less fatigued because there are fewer sounds and resonances that are (even subtly) out of place.

Some find speakers with a perfectly flat response too bright, but this speaker also has built-in DSP, which means you can dial in a warmer “tilt” to the sound (of just a few dB from the lowest to highest frequencies, in a consistent downward slope), which may take some of the edge off. You need an iPad to use the Neumann app, though, as far as I’m aware.

I think your main challenge with that will be that the integrated DSP in these speakers can only control the frequency range above the crossover with the subwoofer. So you can get a rough balance between the sub and KH80s using an SPL monitor (which is what I’ve done), and/or use software EQ for the bass, but getting the right balance with the latter may be somewhat tricky. Also, if you use both software EQ and internal DSP, you will lose some headroom for max SPL. Maybe not enough to matter for desktop use, though.

On the other hand, if you’re not planning to use the DSP (which, if it matters to you, may also undo the benefits or purported benefits of filters, DSD & high sample rates at the playback & DAC stage, as the KH80 is 48KhZ internally), you might be better off with a pair of KH120s instead of the KH80s-plus-sub. They’re analog, and you can just use software EQ as needed to control the whole frequency range. You won’t have quite as deep bass extension or impact as with a sub, but it will probably be cleaner and tighter, and still sound excellent for all genres.

If you do go with the sub-plus-KH80s, the most important issue in an untreated room will likely be the placement of the subwoofer, which you can model with REW to minimize room modes.

I should add a disclaimer that I’m far from an expert on any of this, and still have a huge amount to learn, but I do have both the KH80 and a pair of KH120s as part of a 5.1 setup in a small untreated room, and also use the 120s in my untreated office as desktop speakers for video work and electric piano. I notice a difference with the sub for some music, but most of its impact comes from the LFE when I’m watching TV & movies.
I should also add to this that, in my opinion, the KH120s are better speakers with or without a sub than the KH80s. Others here may disagree, or have an opinion completely at odds with what I’ve written in my post above.
 

radix

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I would second the "flat speaker" approach of @wisechoice. I have my KH80 + KH750 in my office. I use them at about 0.5m (3ft). They get painfully loud at that distance, I am not sure how they would do filling a full room. They sound crystal clear to me. I did the Neumann room correction, then EQ'd a little. I took the treble down a tiny bit and boosted the base a little. Really, you could say I did a slightly warmer house curve.
 

oversky

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I have not but no, I don't think my opinion is changed. It is a small speaker that can't play very loud.

Amirm,

There is an OUTPUT LEVEL switch on the back of KH80.
It can turn up to 114 dB at 1m for 0 dBu with INPUT GAIN set to 0.
Did you make this conclusion at 94 dB setting or 114 dB?
It will be interesting to see how the distortion changes at these higher levels.

Xr54mnP.png
 

Sancus

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There is an OUTPUT LEVEL switch on the back of KH80.
That setting only matters if your DAC is underpowered. At the 94dB setting a proper 4V XLR DAC will give you 108dB which is far beyond the KH80s actual capability.

Neumann's own specs show it maxes out around 88dB(C)@2.3m if it has to play bass, which is not very loud. It's an extremely small speaker.
 
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andrew

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Not necessarily, or even likely. Unless Neumann knows both where the KH80 and KH750DSP are placed relative to each other and the listening position (assuming 1-2 subs) and the acoustic characteristics of the room, they can't hope to integrate the two. I suspect those "integration" graphs were taken with monitor on top of sub in an anechoic chamber, which has little relevance to use in a real room. No matter what subs you use, clean integration still requires a lot of measurements and simulation or trial-and-error.

Still, I admit the idea of making a “modern KEF 107” (really more like "105 design, 107 form factor) or "B&W Matrix 802" by sticking a pair of KH80 atop beautifully finished stout bass bins with a crossover in the 200Hz range is appealing to me as a comparatively (!) low-budget SOTA stereo or LCR speaker. One could even go 4-way (a la Revel Salon2) by adding a midbass coupler at the top of the woofer box, with appropriate filtering.

kef_model_107.jpg
b-w-802-s1-81684.jpg
FYI: A re-arrangement to our home office saw the KH80 no longer in-use so I pulled together a set-up that sees the KH80 paired with a set of bass bins that use the AE TD18H+ driver. The x/o is at 300Hz and done in the digital domain via filters generated from Audiolense. It looks a bit weird but sounds great.
 

YSC

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Not necessarily, or even likely. Unless Neumann knows both where the KH80 and KH750DSP are placed relative to each other and the listening position (assuming 1-2 subs) and the acoustic characteristics of the room, they can't hope to integrate the two. I suspect those "integration" graphs were taken with monitor on top of sub in an anechoic chamber, which has little relevance to use in a real room. No matter what subs you use, clean integration still requires a lot of measurements and simulation or trial-and-error.

Still, I admit the idea of making a “modern KEF 107” (really more like "105 design, 107 form factor) or "B&W Matrix 802" by sticking a pair of KH80 atop beautifully finished stout bass bins with a crossover in the 200Hz range is appealing to me as a comparatively (!) low-budget SOTA stereo or LCR speaker. One could even go 4-way (a la Revel Salon2) by adding a midbass coupler at the top of the woofer box, with appropriate filtering.

kef_model_107.jpg
b-w-802-s1-81684.jpg
I do think with their auto cal system it’s now as easy to integrate as the Genelecs using GLM, they do the dsp correction plus the phase alignment with a simple measurement mic
 

wisechoice

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That setting only matters if your DAC is underpowered. At the 94dB setting a proper 4V XLR DAC will give you 108dB which is far beyond the KH80s actual capability.
Can you please tell me what you're basing those numbers on? I emailed Sennheiser to ask them about differences in gain staging between the various settings, in order to optimize sound quality from a 4V XLR DAC -- but I never got a response. You likely have a better understanding of this than I do.

Also, wondering if anyone here has an answer to my question posted here:


I have a single KH80 DSP integrated with four KH120s and a Genelec 7050c (which is an analogue bass-managed 5.1 sub). I'm not using any DSP right now, so I'd like to try the 0.65ms latency mode with minimum phase. But I don't see that setting anywhere.

Thanks for any help!
 

gvl

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Is there any way to defeat the gigantic light on these except taping it over?
 

3125b

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Is there any way to defeat the gigantic light on these except taping it over?
It can be deactivated with the control app. That might or might not only be available for iPad ...
"Mit der Neumann.Control iPad®-App können Sie festlegen, dass
das Logo nach dem Hochfahren gedimmt oder ganz ausgeschaltet wird."
 

DJBonoBobo

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Is there any way to defeat the gigantic light on these except taping it over?
MA1-software (PC/Mac) or neumann.control app (ipad).
 
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gvl

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As for DSP on these, can I use a generic measurement microphone/calibration file with the control app or it has to be the MA-1?
 

DJBonoBobo

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As for DSP on these, can I use a generic measurement microphone/calibration file with the control app or it has to be the MA-1?
The ipad-app has no measurement functionality and no automatic alignment. You just set the values for EQ filters there (also delay, volume). To determine the correct values for your setup you can make measurements with REW and any mic beforehand.
With the MA1-app it is the other way round - you cannot simply enter EQ values, but need to use the dedicated mic and make measurements first (later you can alter the target curve but not enter all the settings manually).
So the control.app and the MA1-software are pretty different. Sadly they also cannot be used together - if you have a MA1-alignment you cannot use the app afterwards or it overwrites the MA1-values (and vice versa).
 
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DualTriode

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Hey Baby it is cold outside,

Here in the California Pacific North West the road up to our neighborhood has been frozen as in covered in a sheet of ice for most of a week. People with two wheel drive vehicles can not make it up the road or their driveways.

It is my experience that measurement of any of the drivers on the racks in my garage would be a waste of time.

It is not break-in it is warmup.

@amirm measuring speakers in a cold garage is not a good idea.

Thanks DT
 

gvl

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With the MA1-app it is the other way round - you cannot simply enter EQ values, but need to use the dedicated mic

Do I understand it correctly and this mic cannot be just an arbitrary ASIO device?
 

Pippo71

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Just received my new pair of kh80 after a month of wating and I m impressed how these little babies can play loud ad remarkably deep! Now i have to decide whether to pair them with the kh750 and ma-1 or dirac live and a cheaper sub)
 
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