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Neumann KH420 vs Genelec 8361A

echopraxia

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#83
I think @echopraxia has a "small" Genelec sub to go with his 8351b's, all tied together with GLM. He might want to comment on it. It is probably the same cost as the 8361a and no sub.
Yeah I use the Genelec 7360A with my 8351B’s in a small room. It works well for most content, except it does reach it‘s limits before the 8351B’s do if I play very bass-heavy content at extreme levels. Makes sense, since Genelec recommends their larger sub to match the 8351B’s but the 7370 is almost twice as expensive as the 7360 so I figured if I really need more power later I can just get another 7360 which is better anyway.

I also have the 7350A which are combined with the 8330A monitors for my wife‘s home office setup. Works great as well.

Overall, I’d say you can trust Genelec’s specs and recommended sub pairings. If you want to push to extreme SPL levels and never have a sub reach its limits, don’t get a sub less than the recommended pairing. The Genelec 8351B are seriously impressive in their bass SPL capabilities and it really does take serious sub power to keep up when near the limits.

Lastly, I’d say that the Genelec Ones bass capabilities are so impressive on their own that I would definitely put most of your purchase budget into getting the most appropriate One for you first. Without a sub, you can barely tell you don’t have a sub for most musical content. Only when you really want that extra impact and deep bass reach does the sub matter beyond the 25-30hz in-room extension the Ones give you in practice, and in that case Genelec subs just aren’t going to be very cost effective.

I use their somewhat smaller subs because they are super durable, integrate really well with the rest of Genelec products, and have nice features. But by no means are Genelec subs good value for your money. They’re an excellent product, but overpriced.

In contrast, I find the Genelec Ones are absolutely incredible value despite how crazy that may sound due to their price tag. But I really don’t know of any speakers in their price range that are even close.
 
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Pearljam5000

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Thread Starter #84
Yeah I use the Genelec 7360A with my 8351B’s in a small room. It works well for most content, except it does reach it‘s limits before the 8351B’s do if I play very bass-heavy content at extreme levels. Makes sense, since Genelec recommends their larger sub to match the 8351B’s but the 7370 is almost twice as expensive as the 7360 so I figured if I really need more power later I can just get another 7360 which is better anyway.

I also have the 7350A which are combined with the 8330A monitors for my wife‘s home office setup. Works great as well.

Overall, I’d say you can trust Genelec’s specs and recommended sub pairings. If you want to push to extreme SPL levels and never have a sub reach its limits, don’t get a sub less than the recommended pairing. The Genelec 8351B are seriously impressive in their bass SPL capabilities and it really does take serious sub power to keep up when near the limits.

Lastly, I’d say that the Genelec Ones bass capabilities are so impressive on their own that I would definitely put most of your purchase budget into getting the most appropriate One for you first. Without a sub, you can barely tell you don’t have a sub for most musical content. Only when you really want that extra impact and deep bass reach does the sub matter beyond the 25-30hz in-room extension the Ones give you in practice, and in that case Genelec subs just aren’t going to be very cost effective.

I use their somewhat smaller subs because they are super durable, integrate really well with the rest of Genelec products, and have nice features. But by no means are Genelec subs good value for your money. They’re an excellent product, but overpriced.

In contrast, I find the Genelec Ones are absolutely incredible value despite how crazy that may sound due to their price tag. But I really don’t know of any speakers in their price range that are even close.
Thanks for the detailed comment.
Would the 8351B work with the Neumann KH750? It costs about half than the Genelec one.
Screenshot_20201119-041905.jpg
 

detlev24

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#85
[...] Would the 8351B work with the Neumann KH750? It costs about half than the Genelec one.
I don't see a reason why not; and it would also be a little more "sub" than the Genelec one(s). Obviously, you wouldn't be able to use GLM [room EQ] on it.

Distortion etc. is quite well maintained on the 'Neumann KH 750 DSP' as well, for such a small package. See measurements in DATA section: 10% THD @ 20 Hz|~85 dB SPL [at 1 m]. // 'Dynaudio 18S' might be another option, though.
 
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echopraxia

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#86
Thanks for the detailed comment.
Would the 8351B work with the Neumann KH750? It costs about half than the Genelec one.
If you’re mixing brands, then you might as well get the best performance vs price subwoofer you can, since you won’t have the benefit you’d get from an all-Genelec system (e.g. their on-board DSP and room correction software). In that sense, while Neumann is better than Genelec, it’s still rather overpriced relative to other options out there (like Rythmik). The Neumann might be appealing if it has on-board DSP you can use independently of the mains, but I’m not sure that it does.

Edit: Actually, maybe the KH750DSP is more appealing than I thought — it looks like you can manually adjust the EQ with their iPad app, and they claim it can pair with their KH120 analog monitors. Looking at the screenshots, it looks like the KH750DSP actually serves as the DSP and DAC for your monitors (the plot shows adjustability from 10hz-20khz). That’s actually a pretty good deal I think.
 
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richard12511

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#87
Yeah I use the Genelec 7360A with my 8351B’s in a small room. It works well for most content, except it does reach it‘s limits before the 8351B’s do if I play very bass-heavy content at extreme levels. Makes sense, since Genelec recommends their larger sub to match the 8351B’s but the 7370 is almost twice as expensive as the 7360 so I figured if I really need more power later I can just get another 7360 which is better anyway.

I also have the 7350A which are combined with the 8330A monitors for my wife‘s home office setup. Works great as well.

Overall, I’d say you can trust Genelec’s specs and recommended sub pairings. If you want to push to extreme SPL levels and never have a sub reach its limits, don’t get a sub less than the recommended pairing. The Genelec 8351B are seriously impressive in their bass SPL capabilities and it really does take serious sub power to keep up when near the limits.

Lastly, I’d say that the Genelec Ones bass capabilities are so impressive on their own that I would definitely put most of your purchase budget into getting the most appropriate One for you first. Without a sub, you can barely tell you don’t have a sub for most musical content. Only when you really want that extra impact and deep bass reach does the sub matter beyond the 25-30hz in-room extension the Ones give you in practice, and in that case Genelec subs just aren’t going to be very cost effective.

I use their somewhat smaller subs because they are super durable, integrate really well with the rest of Genelec products, and have nice features. But by no means are Genelec subs good value for your money. They’re an excellent product, but overpriced.

In contrast, I find the Genelec Ones are absolutely incredible value despite how crazy that may sound due to their price tag. But I really don’t know of any speakers in their price range that are even close.
Unfortunately, the 7370s don't keep up either :(, though the room is quite large. I probably should have gotten 7360s. I didn't realize they were that much cheaper, and the 7370 was the recommended pairing. Did some serious testing today that was somewhat frustrating. It's pretty clear that 1 of my RS2s($3,500) on its own outperforms both of my 7370s($8,000) when they're placed together :confused:. It's so odd. I don't get it. The 8351bs sound amazing, and should probably cost way more than they do, but why are the subs so expensive??? The fact that all of the monitors I've bought from them are perhaps the best value speakers I've ever purchased almost makes it more frustrating. Eventually I'm wanna buy the W371 tower addons, but those also super expensive :mad:(at least those are much more than just subwoofers, though).

I'm gonna move the 7370s tomorrow into my office to replace the JBL subs. They should work much better in there. Unfortunately, I'll have to upgrade the monitors in the office if I want to take advantage of GLM(I went with 8030c not thinking I'd ever have Genelec subs :().
 

richard12511

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#88
Thanks for the detailed comment.
Would the 8351B work with the Neumann KH750? It costs about half than the Genelec one.
The purpose of getting the Genelec subs is for the integration with GLM(imo). If you're going with a different brand, there are probably better subs out there for the money. Being in Israel makes it more harder for me to recommend you options. I don't think Rythmik or HSU ships there, which are the 2 most consider as be the best value. I think JTR does, but I don't know what shipping would be. Might be worth asking Jeff at JTR. Have you looked at SVS? I would bet they ship worldwide. Back when I got into this hobby 15 years ago, it seemed like they were the value kings.
 
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Pearljam5000

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Thread Starter #89
Yes, it's unfortunate that their subs are so expensive, even Neumann subs have more value for money.
 
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Pearljam5000

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Thread Starter #90
The purpose of getting the Genelec subs is for the integration with GLM(imo). If you're going with a different brand, there are probably better subs out there for the money. Being in Israel makes it more harder for me to recommend you options. I don't think Rythmik or HSU ships there, which are the 2 most consider as be the best value. I think JTR does, but I don't know what shipping would be. Might be worth asking Jeff at JTR. Have you looked at SVS? I would bet they ship worldwide. Back when I got into this hobby 15 years ago, it seemed like they were the value kings.
I'll check out SVS, thanks.
 

echopraxia

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#91
Unfortunately, the 7370s don't keep up either :(, though the room is quite large. I probably should have gotten 7360s. I didn't realize they were that much cheaper, and the 7370 was the recommended pairing. Did some serious testing today that was somewhat frustrating. It's pretty clear that 1 of my RS2s($3,500) on its own outperforms both of my 7370s($8,000) when they're placed together :confused:. It's so odd. I don't get it. The 8351bs sound amazing, and should probably cost way more than they do, but why are the subs so expensive??? The fact that all of the monitors I've bought from them are perhaps the best value speakers I've ever purchased almost makes it more frustrating. Eventually I'm wanna buy the W371 tower addons, but those also super expensive :mad:(at least those are much more than just subwoofers, though).

I'm gonna move the 7370s tomorrow into my office to replace the JBL subs. They should work much better in there. Unfortunately, I'll have to upgrade the monitors in the office if I want to take advantage of GLM(I went with 8030c not thinking I'd ever have Genelec subs :().
Yeah, that’s unfortunate but not unexpected when comparing to the JTR RS2’s, which are truly incredible (judging by the specs anyway). I don’t know if there’s really much else in the world that compares to those JTR subs, excluding custom stuff.

It is still a bit disappointing, though, given how amazing the Genelec (and Neumann) monitors are for their size. But I suppose the lower the frequencies go, the harder it is to get past basic limits like cabinet size and displacement.
 

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#92
Unfortunately, the 7370s don't keep up either :(, though the room is quite large. I probably should have gotten 7360s. I didn't realize they were that much cheaper, and the 7370 was the recommended pairing. Did some serious testing today that was somewhat frustrating. It's pretty clear that 1 of my RS2s($3,500) on its own outperforms both of my 7370s($8,000) when they're placed together :confused:.
How does GLM4 treat multiple subwoofers btw? According to the GLM3 manual(pg74, it doesnt seem like a full manual for GLM4 is out yet) it phase and level/distance corrects one sub at a time, and then you have to go in and make a manual dB correction(?!) based on the number of subs you have.

If that's how GLM4 works, kinda disappointing, and not really competitive with Audyssey bass management let alone the new Dirac BM. I can't test this since I don't own any Genelec subs, but I was kinda considering 2-3 7360s.
 

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#93
If you’re mixing brands, then you might as well get the best performance vs price subwoofer you can, since you won’t have the benefit you’d get from an all-Genelec system (e.g. their on-board DSP and room correction software). In that sense, while Neumann is better than Genelec, it’s still rather overpriced relative to other options out there (like Rythmik). The Neumann might be appealing if it has on-board DSP you can use independently of the mains, but I’m not sure that it does.

Edit: Actually, maybe the KH750DSP is more appealing than I thought — it looks like you can manually adjust the EQ with their iPad app, and they claim it can pair with their KH120 analog monitors. Looking at the screenshots, it looks like the KH750DSP actually serves as the DSP and DAC for your monitors (the plot shows adjustability from 10hz-20khz). That’s actually a pretty good deal I think.
Thank you for pointing that out. I had not realized the sub had a digital input and DAC. That makes it really useful, and now I understand how it works so well with their other analog monitors. I am not sure what I was thinking because it makes much more sense now.
 

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#94
I think the 750 DSP is a good deal for Neumann monitors, but i don´t know how it would work with a Genelec. In the app, you have to chose wich Neumann monitor you use (80, 120, 310 or 420), but you can´t chose "other brand", "generic" or something like that. The KH 750 applies some kind of additional linear phase filtering to optimize the analog monitors, but i don´t know what this does to other speakers. Maybe the best option would be chosing the KH80 in the app if pairing the KH 750 with other brands, because the KH80 already has those filters implemented and perhaps the KH 750 does nothing else other than EQ, volume, delay etc. then, but i don´t know. Maybe somebody ask Neumann about it?
 

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#95
While I'm a fan of both Genelec and Neumann, for that amount of money and considering you're not looking at anything used. I'd probably go for something different like the new GGNTKT M1 + a couple of small subs from something like BK. The M1 measures very well, can be tuned with different cardioid settings and features built-in EQ options. They're currently around 6k if I'm correct. The BK subs are very well built, their after sales service is as good as any (they serviced my 2005 XLS200 amplifier last year after 14 years of use) and in a room that small you won't need anything more than 2 of these and something to EQ them (minidsp or similar) , add a butttkicker below 40Hz if you need some more 'weight' and tactile energy.
 

richard12511

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#96
How does GLM4 treat multiple subwoofers btw? According to the GLM3 manual(pg74, it doesnt seem like a full manual for GLM4 is out yet) it phase and level/distance corrects one sub at a time, and then you have to go in and make a manual dB correction(?!) based on the number of subs you have.

If that's how GLM4 works, kinda disappointing, and not really competitive with Audyssey bass management let alone the new Dirac BM. I can't test this since I don't own any Genelec subs, but I was kinda considering 2-3 7360s.
I actually don’t have GLM 4. At least I don’t think so? Maybe for windows? I did have to use an older MacBook to get it work. I do plan to get a windows pc to use as a source here in the next few days, so I’ll make sure I’m using 4 when I do that. Honestly, didn’t know it was out yet :)

Also is Dirac BM out yet for general use? Last time I checked you had to buy some $4,000 pre amp or something to use it?
 

detlev24

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#97
[...] Honestly, didn’t know it was out yet :)

Also is Dirac BM out yet for general use? Last time I checked you had to buy some $4,000 pre amp or something to use it?
GLM 4 is still in public beta testing, if you want to give it a try.

Dirac Live 'Bass Control Upgrades' are available for some (rather expensive) devices. Similar functionality, but fully software-based, is given in form of a 'Multichannel' DL for Studio solution.
 

richard12511

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#98
While I'm a fan of both Genelec and Neumann, for that amount of money and considering you're not looking at anything used. I'd probably go for something different like the new GGNTKT M1 + a couple of small subs from something like BK. The M1 measures very well, can be tuned with different cardioid settings and features built-in EQ options. They're currently around 6k if I'm correct. The BK subs are very well built, their after sales service is as good as any (they serviced my 2005 XLS200 amplifier last year after 14 years of use) and in a room that small you won't need anything more than 2 of these and something to EQ them (minidsp or similar) , add a butttkicker below 40Hz if you need some more 'weight' and tactile energy.
I was really curious about the GGNTKT and almost went that route. Measurements look 95% as good as 8351, but with 3dB more headroom than even the 8361 :oops:. Also lower cardioid dispersion( you can get similar cardioid dispersion from the 8351 by laying it on its side, but still ~50Hz shy). Great price, too. Unfortunately, really difficult to get for someone living in Texas :(.
 

richard12511

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#99
It is still a bit disappointing, though, given how amazing the Genelec (and Neumann) monitors are for their size. But I suppose the lower the frequencies go, the harder it is to get past basic limits like cabinet size and displacement.
I will say they're impressive for the size. Amazing what they can get from a 12inch woofer and just 400 watts. I'm guessing a lot of that is due to the incredible port design. Also, I'm guessing all the connection and configuration options are more useful for those using them professionally(I'm just using an AVR). Really, my only issue is the price.
 

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I was really curious about the GGNTKT and almost went that route. Measurements look 95% as good as 8351, but with 3dB more headroom than even the 8361 :oops:. Also lower cardioid dispersion( you can get similar cardioid dispersion from the 8351 by laying it on its side, but still ~50Hz shy). Great price, too. Unfortunately, really difficult to get for someone living in Texas :(.
Can't blame you. When it comes to electronics it's important to be able to have your equipment serviced without much hassle and that's simply not the case for a new product like GGNTKT in your situation. The good news is that I don't believe you're missing out.
 

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