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Neumann KH420 vs Genelec 8361A

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Pearljam5000

Pearljam5000

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I won't regret not buying the biggest, baddest flagship of the series they make for a little more $$$?
 

bricksie

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And now to throw a wrench into all of this, there's another monitor company with coaxial tweeter/mid that looks really interesting: Ex Machina out of Brooklyn NY. Their smaller model is about the price of the 8351.
 

q3cpma

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And now to throw a wrench into all of this, there's another monitor company with coaxial tweeter/mid that looks really interesting: Ex Machina out of Brooklyn NY. Their smaller model is about the price of the 8351.
Beaming tweeter and probably worse IMD than Genelec as it crosses at 200 Hz instead of 320 Hz for the 8351B. Need to do room correction by yourself, too.
6 year warranty is nice if the manufacturer doesn't disappear, though.
index.php

Source: manual
 

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bricksie

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Beaming tweeter and probably worse IMD than Genelec as it crosses at 200 Hz instead of 320 Hz for the 8351B. Need to do room correction by yourself, too.
6 year warranty is nice if the manufacturer doesn't disappear, though.

Source: manual

Note that the frequency extends to 40KHz in the graph - where we can actually hear, the beaming isn't so bad (I probably can't hear above 15K at my age :(). Also, the mid is 6" diameter so IMD is likely not that bad either.
 

richard12511

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I won't regret not buying the biggest, baddest flagship of the series they make for a little more $$$?

Depending on listening distance and SPL needs, the bigger and more expensive speakers are often worse than the smaller and cheaper speakers.
 
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Pearljam5000

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Room is currently 3X3 meters
Distance, I'm pretty flexible, whatever will sound better
 

pierre

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Can I suggest another way to look at it?

8361 or kh420 will bring you best in class speakers. How good in your room? Can you add some treatment ? If the answer is no, then smaller speakers with multi subs is the way to go. If the room is not good, the differences between this 2 speakers is kind of pointless.

if you are very close to the speaker, the coaxial is better. The Neumann are great, i loved them, I had them for 2 weeks, they kick ass. I baught the genelec because the price was better. They can light the room in a nice way too.

in a 3X3 room: 2x8341 one sub 8360 or similar at Neumann + room treatment.
you cannot stay in the room if you push them (5 min max before your head start to spin)
 
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Sancus

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What stands are they? Where did you get them?

These stands are K&M modular base plate + distance rod ones. I suggest ordering from Thomann even if you live outside Europe, it's cheapest. Notably, the base plates have several bushings so you can attach the rods in the center, or on the edge or corner depending on your usage. You can even put multiple rods into one, which is my plan for the front heights. I like that you can put other stuff on top of the base plate as well.

Mounting of the speakers to the stand is with the 19780 adapter. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. For lighter/smaller speakers they work perfectly, but I wouldn't use them for 8361As. Certainly, the friction height clamp would not work at all. There are probably other ways to attach the speakers to these stands, but K&M has a dizzying array of products in this line and I stopped researching when I found something that worked for me :p There is an official guide to attaching various adapters to various monitors here.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the adapter fits on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one, there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod. Alternatively, you could use the 19610.

That said, I will also note that K&M customer support is ridiculously good -- they will respond quickly to any questions about their products and in great detail, they sent me an engineering drawing PDF for my specific solution after 1 business day(!).
 
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andreasmaaan

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You're likely to be better off with 8351 + 2 subs than with 8361, IMHO.

Firstly, as others have mentioned, in most respects the 8351 performs slightly better in the midrange and high frequencies, so there would be that advantage.

Secondly and more importantly, having two subs that you can locate optimally in the room and calibrate independently of the speakers is going to be a huge asset in terms of getting the best out of your room/system.

The subs don't even need to be particularly expensive. I'm not sure how much you'd save on 2 x 8351 vs 2 x 8361, but I presume around €2k equivalent. That should leave enough budget for 2 x €1k subwoofers, which would be a much more sensible choice than 2 x 8361 without subs IMO. If you want to go all-out in the future, you can always upgrade the subs (although I'd expect €2k to get you perfectly adequate subs in a room the size of yours).

Also please keep in mind that your room, and the location of speakers and you in it, are every bit as important as the speakers themselves. The best speakers in the world are not going to sound too great at all in a poor room/setup.
 

LTig

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That's why I said relatively. That heatsink says HOT in big letters for a reason.
That's probably required to prevent US citizens to sue Neumann for US$ 1.000.000 when they touch the heat sink and get burned ... :facepalm:

I don't own the KH420 but I own the smaller predecssor of the KH310, the K&H O300D, with a combined RMS power of 260W (130W+60W+70W class A/B power amps). The size of the heat sink on the back is 20 x 13 cm. It gets just warm to the touch even after long sessions at higher SPL. I haven't measured the temperature, but knowing that at about 50 degree Celsius humans start to feel pain I can say the O300D is far away from that. I don't see any reason why this would be different for the KH310 and KH420 (with its bigger heatsink).

So as long as no one can show some evidence that the KH420 dies prematurely due to too high temperature we should refrain from spreading FUD.
 

q3cpma

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That's probably required to prevent US citizens to sue Neumann for US$ 1.000.000 when they touch the heat sink and get burned ... :facepalm:

I don't own the KH420 but I own the smaller predecssor of the KH310, the K&H O300D, with a combined RMS power of 260W (130W+60W+70W class A/B power amps). The size of the heat sink on the back is 20 x 13 cm. It gets just warm to the touch even after long sessions at higher SPL. I haven't measured the temperature, but knowing that at about 50 degree Celsius humans start to feel pain I can say the O300D is far away from that. I don't see any reason why this would be different for the KH310 and KH420 (with its bigger heatsink).

So as long as no one can show some evidence that the KH420 dies prematurely due to too high temperature we should refrain from spreading FUD.
Guess I took the hypothesis a bit far. Let's say that class D is just more suited to active speakers with electronics inside.
 

LTig

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The dilemma is harder than i thought o_O
1237A or 8361A or 8351B with a sub or KH420
Let me throw in a pair of KH310 and a pair of subs (KH750 or similar from Genelec) for the same amount of money. I'm sure as long as you don't need the higher possible SPL of the KH420 this combination may deliver better sound in a room. Midrange and tweeter domes are the same anyway.
 

matt3421

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if i had to choose between the 8361 and kh 420 i would pick the latter as it has textbook perfect horizontal dispersion. but i would pick the 8351b + a subwoofer over either.
 

q3cpma

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if i had to choose between the 8361 and kh 420 i would pick the latter as it has textbook perfect horizontal dispersion. but i would pick the 8351b + a subwoofer over either.
In this comparison, you should consider that the Ones have a better vertical than horizontal dispersion, and that they're made to be easily laid on their side.
 

thewas

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Room is currently 3X3 meters
Distance, I'm pretty flexible, whatever will sound better
At such a small room imho such a high investment is not really worth it as you won't have great sound quality needing to place the loudspeakers at only 50cm from the front wall and side walls and yourself then also less than a meter from the rear wall for a decent 2 meter stereo triangle.
If I were you I would rather spend money on room acoustics unless you plan to change later to a bigger room.

Also in such a small room and listening distance something like a KH310 or Genelec 8351 would get more then enough loud, although you would still to have fight with bass modes and nulls, where possibly some nearfield monitors and 2x subs would give you better results.
 
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