Should I exchange my Philharmonic Audio HTs for Genelec 8361a's?

[holdingpants01]

Update:

I've decided to keep the 8361a Genelec monitors. I do love my Philharmonic Audio HTs and will keep a pair for my living room. For critical nearfield(ish) listening I prefer the 8361a's. There really is no comparison between the two unless one insists on very wide directivity. Bass response is less an issue than I expected.

The original deal fell through because I did not want to part with the E15 Rythmik subwoofers. Instead of a trade I bought an open box set of 8361a's for $8200 from Sweetwater with the original warranty. I'll sell off other stuff to make it up.

Here's what I'm hearing. Looks good, sounds great.

View attachment 441849

Congratulations, having two different but really good systems is a luxury and a dream for many. BTW That's a great price, especially since they will probably get more expensive very soon (in the US)

 

[Mort]

Congratulations, having two different but really good systems is a luxury and a dream for many. B

Thx, yes. I am grateful for the economic means to support this hobby at this level. I hope not about prices - but I that does seem inevitable.

I guess that means they are very different and jenny is the better. Can you describe? And try not to be too technical because Idk what dispersion sounds like.

The Philharmonic Audio is by far the better deal if budget constrained. I think it has a distinctive sound compared to the Genelecs. The soundstage is taller and wider, slightly bigger than speakers. Music is slightly more ethereal and open. In A/B instant switching, I would always prefer it. For casual listening and listening at multiple spots in a room, I prefer these.

For critical listening and single LP, nearfield(ish) I prefer the Genelecs - price notwithstanding. The Genelecs by comparison have a smaller soundstage, though not small, but it's mostly between speakers. The soundstage is more precise, however. Music seems clearer and I believe I am noticing things in the production that were harder to notice through the wider directivity of the HTs. They also have something I have not really heard before, which I think Amir described as 'integration' or 'smoothness'. All genres sounded good to me and at all volumes in a way that was pleasing albeit indescribable. The feeling of envelopment mid bass is better, not sure why.

When I sit at the HTs for critical listening now I miss the clarity and the integration. I'm pretty sure the jennies play louder, although neither system will have any issue with SPL.

 

[RobL]

Congratulations, great speakers!
Another nice feature is the Genelecs will hold their value very well. I ended up selling my pair as I just wasn’t using them enough to justify the investment. I miss them though…

 

[MKR]

Thx, yes. I am grateful for the economic means to support this hobby at this level. I hope not about prices - but I that does seem inevitable.



The Philharmonic Audio is by far the better deal if budget constrained. I think it has a distinctive sound compared to the Genelecs. The soundstage is taller and wider, slightly bigger than speakers. Music is slightly more ethereal and open. In A/B instant switching, I would always prefer it. For casual listening and listening at multiple spots in a room, I prefer these.

For critical listening and single LP, nearfield(ish) I prefer the Genelecs - price notwithstanding. The Genelecs by comparison have a smaller soundstage, though not small, but it's mostly between speakers. The soundstage is more precise, however. Music seems clearer and I believe I am noticing things in the production that were harder to notice through the wider directivity of the HTs. They also have something I have not really heard before, which I think Amir described as 'integration' or 'smoothness'. All genres sounded good to me and at all volumes in a way that was pleasing albeit indescribable. The feeling of envelopment mid bass is better, not sure why.

When I sit at the HTs for critical listening now I miss the clarity and the integration. I'm pretty sure the jennies play louder, although neither system will have any issue with SPL.

Congrats! I find this very interesting. While not Philharmonics or Genelec, I am in a very similar quandary, trying to decide between a coax vs planar based midrange system. Both are excellent but each has its own advantages, primarily due to dispersion differences. Depending upon the use case and type of music, I have found my choice for which driver I prefer changes. Your final decision has mirrored mine, reinforces my own decision … I will have both! Variable directivity capability also helps to have my cake and eat it too.

Thank you @Mort for sharing your journey, very enlightening.

 

[Mort]

Another nice feature is the Genelecs will hold their value very well.

Yeah they sure do. Finding discounted/used 'Ones' is difficult. Even the analog line holds up.

Variable directivity capability

Oooohhh! Nice feature.

 

[Mort]

I've been going for a few weeks now and do not miss the HT's, with or without the dual subs. I made the right choice, although I'm not selling off my old gear as quickly as I hoped. Oh well, one never does.

With room gain, I get to 30hz but there is rapid roll off below 30hz that I notice on a few tracks. I used to get down to 15 or so with the dual 15" subs. The 8361a can't replicate that. I probably only really need to 25, 20 would be great.

Next week, I can play with a tiny sub (8" 7350a) for fun. It's obviously not the sub recommended by Genelec (7370a for sale on ebay for $3k right now) but it'll still be interesting to see what GLM does with it and if I get any lower reproduction, even at a low volume.

 

[MKR]

I've been going for a few weeks now and do not miss the HT's, with or without the dual subs. I made the right choice, although I'm not selling off my old gear as quickly as I hoped. Oh well, one never does.

With room gain, I get to 30hz but there is rapid roll off below 30hz that I notice on a few tracks. I used to get down to 15 or so with the dual 15" subs. The 8361a can't replicate that. I probably only really need to 25, 20 would be great.

Next week, I can play with a tiny sub (8" 7350a) for fun. It's obviously not the sub recommended by Genelec (7370a for sale on ebay for $3k right now) but it'll still be interesting to see what GLM does with it and if I get any lower reproduction, even at a low volume.

Your next purchase should be the W371s so you can add cardioid capability. It will be a revelation

 

[kma100]

Your next purchase should be the W371s so you can add cardioid capability. It will be a revelation

"You might be wondering how I ended up with a 7.4.4 Genelec system. Well, gather around...."

 

[srrxr71]

I'm not happy about it either. It was a major point in favor of Genelec.
When I say I'm using DiracLive, it's actually a combo of manual REW PEQ and a sweep from DiracLive.
Dirac on it's own is about the same as GLM imo.

I did figure out how to customize the curve a little better, but it's really not a good interface for that.
My intent is to keep playing with it. I've not given up.

For tone curve either you have to go full on mathematical in GLM or go 3rd party. Maybe even the windows or Apple Music eq.

I do mine in Trinnov after GLM.

However it turns out my old Blusound Node now supports Dirac Live for a small license fee. So I will give that a try also.

 

[srrxr71]

@Behrelec 37 - I like the way you've explained the whole concept very interesting. I understand that GLM treats the sub channel as a single channel even if one uses four subs. However, my question is - does GLM let you tweak the settings for each individual sub and what are those settings that can be tweaked?

I don’t believe so. You can pair a sub to a main channel individually. However it does not have any synergistic capabilities like MSO or Trinnov Waveform or the Dirac Bass Control.

 

[Mort]

I added 2 small subs - 7360a's, which gets that half octave or so that the 8361a could not reproduce, even with room gain. I like it,

So I'm back to square one, mains with subs but I have upgraded to Genelec...

 

[Pearljam5000]

I added 2 small subs - 7360a's, which gets that half octave or so that the 8361a could not reproduce, even with room gain. I like it,

So I'm back to square one, mains with subs but I have upgraded to Genelec...

Endgame setup for sure

 

[Mort]

Endgame setup for sure

Getting closer. It does clip at higher levels on bass heavy tracks. That's fine and expected.

Someone will mention the W371a, which I am saving for but not happening any time soon.

 

[Mort]

This change to Genelecs has required I learn new DSP room correction and bass management software.
I'm going from MiniDSP/DiracLive to Genelec GLM and there are definitely pro's and con's to each. I'll just focus on GLM.

Pros

• I think the biggest pro is the GRADE report, which covers key areas like early and late reflections, with suggestions on how to fix.
• The second biggest pro is the room correction algorithm, which I think is a hair better than DiracLive.
• The third pro is the phase correction which is miles better than anything I've used. It's really good.

Cons

• The biggest headache is the lack of control. It doesn't have the bass management tools I am used to with MiniDsp. Come on Genelec, I should be easily able to roll off my subs at 15hz or whatever. I confirmed with support that implementing a roll off is an incredible pain in the ass to do with GLM. Weak.
• It's slow, especially the phase correction. I found it more tedious to go back and forth between REW and GLM to do trial and error testing.
• GLM has some quirks with volume control that are unforgivable. It will go to full or nearly full volume seemingly randomly when you go in and out of GLM calibration modules. It has caused some unexpectedly loud sound.
• The GLM metal volume control for an extra $100 is gorgeous but it stops working after an hour or so unless GLM remains connected to a pc.
• The software is klunky. MiniDSP isn't going to win any design awards but the actual use of the tool is easier. GLM has way too many dialog boxes.

GLM gets the important things right and is my overall favorite. But it's lousy UX and software bugs take away from the experience. They are so avoidable.

 

[G|force]

Mort,
You can keep the GLM box powered and the volume control operating with a cell phone charger if you want to disconnect from your computer.

 

[Esprit]

The software is klunky. MiniDSP isn't going to win any design awards but the actual use of the tool is easier. GLM has way too many dialog boxes.

When I used GLM for a month, I didn't have this impression at all. I always kept the connection to the MacBook active and also the microphone to have a constant reference of the real volume level.

 

[Mort]

Were you also a MiniDSP user?

 

[Esprit]

No, I used GLM with its interface connected to the Mac and the 8361s were connected in AES/EBU to an RME.

 

[Mort]

Here's the data from REW and GLM. My process was to

1. Crossed at 85hz
2. Ran GLM room calibration AND phase
3. Add a -2db low shelf
4. Adjusted the subs -3db each.
   
   It took a lot of trial and error - several hours of work. It was pleasant work, but work, nonetheless.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Although the GLM does a nice job, it does not predict the corrected curve well. Few programs do in my experience.

 

[CMB]

This change to Genelecs has required I learn new DSP room correction and bass management software.
I'm going from MiniDSP/DiracLive to Genelec GLM and there are definitely pro's and con's to each. I'll just focus on GLM.

Pros

• I think the biggest pro is the GRADE report, which covers key areas like early and late reflections, with suggestions on how to fix.
• The second biggest pro is the room correction algorithm, which I think is a hair better than DiracLive.
• The third pro is the phase correction which is miles better than anything I've used. It's really good.

Cons

• The biggest headache is the lack of control. It doesn't have the bass management tools I am used to with MiniDsp. Come on Genelec, I should be easily able to roll off my subs at 15hz or whatever. I confirmed with support that implementing a roll off is an incredible pain in the ass to do with GLM. Weak.
• It's slow, especially the phase correction. I found it more tedious to go back and forth between REW and GLM to do trial and error testing.
• GLM has some quirks with volume control that are unforgivable. It will go to full or nearly full volume seemingly randomly when you go in and out of GLM calibration modules. It has caused some unexpectedly loud sound.
• The GLM metal volume control for an extra $100 is gorgeous but it stops working after an hour or so unless GLM remains connected to a pc.
• The software is klunky. MiniDSP isn't going to win any design awards but the actual use of the tool is easier. GLM has way too many dialog boxes.

GLM gets the important things right and is my overall favorite. But it's lousy UX and software bugs take away from the experience. They are so avoidable.

Hi Mort,
You can save the volume limit to the speaker. Doing so, I never experience that high volume problem at start.
Cheers