Neumann KH120 II

[Pearljam5000]

It should, but it doesn't. Neumann support has acknowledged this but they did not give me an ETA yet on when it will.

It's weird that it's on their website
I would never have known it currently doesn't

 

[AgentWet]

It's weird that it's on their website
I would never have known it currently doesn't

Time will tell us. When I asked two “specialists” in chat on Neumann website about differences between KH120 mark II and KH150, they were telling me that KH150 has DSP and KH120II doesn’t )))
After many attempts from my side that it’s total nonsense and that both have DSP and that they have it on their website and when I copied these texts they said “Sorry”. )))))
So I’m at the beginning again. I know that amplifying is the same, tweeter is the same, DSP is the same and it seems that only woofer size and cabinet sizes is smaller. And the price is very nice (60% of KH150) and distortion above 200Hz is better than in case of KH150 which can go 5Hz lower. So I’m leaning towards the KH120II + some great SUB later. I think it should be great combo for rooms up to 25 square meters. I will wait for Amir’s test.

 

[enricoclaudio]

I got the KH150s right after @amirm review and coming from Dynaudio BM5 MKIIIs was a very nice upgrade. However, if you are looking at the KH150s or the KH120 IIs because the MA-1 software, then be ready to be disappointed. Bass management only works with Neumann KH750s and speakers needs to be placed in a perfect equidistant triangle (L - MLP - R) which in most cases is not possible. If you own a miniDSP UMIK-1 mic, you would be better served getting a miniDSP FLEX TRS with Dirac Live and you will get much better results not to mention that you can use any third party subwoofer. Neumann is definitely a great manufacture as showed by their amazing mics and speakers. Software wise, they are a real shame. OK, the one to blame here is Sennheiser but again, it's a shame that they can't develop a usable software after many years. Every release come with more bugs and less improvements.

 

[DJBonoBobo]

I got the KH150s right after @amirm review and coming from Dynaudio BM5 MKIIIs was a very nice upgrade. However, if you are looking at the KH150s or the KH120 IIs because the MA-1 software, then be ready to be disappointed. Bass management only works with Neumann KH750s and speakers needs to be placed in a perfect equidistant triangle (L - MLP - R) which in most cases is not possible. If you own a miniDSP UMIK-1 mic, you would be better served getting a miniDSP FLEX TRS with Dirac Live and you will get much better results not to mention that you can use any third party subwoofer. Neumann is definitely a great manufacture as showed by their amazing mics and speakers. Software wise, they are a real shame. OK, the one to blame here is Sennheiser but again, it's a shame that they can't develop a usable software after many years. Every release come with more bugs and less improvements.

I don't think that statement is fair. Yes, they have problems with the software and they are pretty slow to fix them, and they deserve criticism for that, but to say the software is not usable is too harsh (except for the 120II, but this has only been available for a few weeks, not years).
I have used the software from the start, and i could always use it and work around the quirks. Sure, it is not as reliable as i would like it, but if you don't try using it every day as a monitor controller it should be ok to do the setup. BTW of course it also works if you don't use a perfect equidistant triangle, it's just not recommended. It works the same as Dirac in this regard.
Yes, it is not designed to work with @enricoclaudio 's Rhythmik-subs. Everyone taking the MA1-road is unlikely to buy some of your subs. But because of that, you are IMHO not neutral in this matter, that's why i speak against you (again).
You are right, of course, that the MiniDSP offers some advantages over the MA1. I tried both MA1 and DLBC, though, and the MA1 has some advantages, too (comparison: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...live-bass-control-dlbc-dual-kh750-subs.43054/).

 

[Pearljam5000]

I got the KH150s right after @amirm review and coming from Dynaudio BM5 MKIIIs was a very nice upgrade. However, if you are looking at the KH150s or the KH120 IIs because the MA-1 software, then be ready to be disappointed. Bass management only works with Neumann KH750s and speakers needs to be placed in a perfect equidistant triangle (L - MLP - R) which in most cases is not possible. If you own a miniDSP UMIK-1 mic, you would be better served getting a miniDSP FLEX TRS with Dirac Live and you will get much better results not to mention that you can use any third party subwoofer. Neumann is definitely a great manufacture as showed by their amazing mics and speakers. Software wise, they are a real shame. OK, the one to blame here is Sennheiser but again, it's a shame that they can't develop a usable software after many years. Every release come with more bugs and less improvements.

What's the difference from Dynaudio BM5 MKIIIs?
Thanks

 

[enricoclaudio]

I don't think that statement is fair. Yes, they have problems with the software and they are pretty slow to fix them, and they deserve criticism for that, but to say the software is not usable is too harsh (except for the 120II, but this has only been available for a few weeks, not years).
I have used the software from the start, and i could always use it and work around the quirks. Sure, it is not as reliable as i would like it, but if you don't try using it every day as a monitor controller it should be ok to do the setup. BTW of course it also works if you don't use a perfect equidistant triangle, it's just not recommended. It works the same as Dirac in this regard.
Yes, it is not designed to work with @enricoclaudio 's Rhythmik-subs. Everyone taking the MA1-road is unlikely to buy some of your subs. But because of that, you are IMHO not neutral in this matter, that's why i speak against you (again).
You are right, of course, that the MiniDSP offers some advantages over the MA1. I tried both MA1 and DLBC, though, and the MA1 has some advantages, too (comparison: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...live-bass-control-dlbc-dual-kh750-subs.43054/).

I did say Third Party Subwoofers, which include any NON-Neumann subwoofers. I'm not promoting "my" Rythmik Audio subwoofers as I know a LOT of Neumann owners that run different subwoofers brands, including SVS, Arendal, KEF, JL Audio, etc. and none of those owners can use the MA-1 software to properly integrate their subwoofers with the KH150s or in this case, the KH120 IIs. And only because of that, it is why I do recommend getting a miniDSP instead of the MA-1 Mic.

 

[enricoclaudio]

What's the difference from Dynaudio BM5 MKIIIs?
Thanks

Like my son in law says, the BM5 MKIIIs are fun to listen to. Whatever you play through them, will sound good. Contrary to the KH150s, a bad recording will be revealed instantly with the KH150s. A good recording will sound AMAZING with the KH150s. They are revealing speakers. Low dynamic range recordings will sound like crap with the KH150s.

 

[J-B]

I don't think that statement is fair. Yes, they have problems with the software and they are pretty slow to fix them, and they deserve criticism for that, but to say the software is not usable is too harsh (except for the 120II, but this has only been available for a few weeks, not years).
I have used the software from the start, and i could always use it and work around the quirks. Sure, it is not as reliable as i would like it, but if you don't try using it every day as a monitor controller it should be ok to do the setup. BTW of course it also works if you don't use a perfect equidistant triangle, it's just not recommended. It works the same as Dirac in this regard.
Yes, it is not designed to work with @enricoclaudio 's Rhythmik-subs. Everyone taking the MA1-road is unlikely to buy some of your subs. But because of that, you are IMHO not neutral in this matter, that's why i speak against you (again).
You are right, of course, that the MiniDSP offers some advantages over the MA1. I tried both MA1 and DLBC, though, and the MA1 has some advantages, too (comparison: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...live-bass-control-dlbc-dual-kh750-subs.43054/).

I agree.
MA-1 might have it's quirks, but offers excellent results even without using sub(s).
I'm getting far superior results than with for example Sonarworks and it's very convenient that the correction is saved in the speakers.
So no disappointment for me at all when it comes to actual correction.
My only disappointment right now is that even the lead designer told me MA-1 would be already working for the KH120II, while it's not.
I really can't understand this. It's one of the selling points of the new mk II.
They even updated their MA-1 product page after I mentioned that the mk II wasn't in the supported list yet.

 

[Spocko]

I got the KH150s right after @amirm review and coming from Dynaudio BM5 MKIIIs was a very nice upgrade. However, if you are looking at the KH150s or the KH120 IIs because the MA-1 software, then be ready to be disappointed. Bass management only works with Neumann KH750s and speakers needs to be placed in a perfect equidistant triangle (L - MLP - R) which in most cases is not possible. If you own a miniDSP UMIK-1 mic, you would be better served getting a miniDSP FLEX TRS with Dirac Live and you will get much better results not to mention that you can use any third party subwoofer. Neumann is definitely a great manufacture as showed by their amazing mics and speakers. Software wise, they are a real shame. OK, the one to blame here is Sennheiser but again, it's a shame that they can't develop a usable software after many years. Every release come with more bugs and less improvements.

Looks like I'll be playing with these DSP settings then
and skip the MA-1 until further improvements are made.

 

[Pearljam5000]

So b4

Looks like I'll be playing with these DSP settings then
and skip the MA-1 until further improvements are made.
View attachment 284588

Can you reach they same results with the physical buttons as with the MA-1?

 

[enricoclaudio]

So b4
Can you reach they same results with the physical buttons as with the MA-1?

As far I know, @amirm measurements for the KH150 were done using only the back buttons meaning you don’t need the MA-1 mic/app to get the same results as the ones from the KH150 review. My guess is the same applies to the KH120 IIs.

 

[thewas]

Can you reach they same results with the physical buttons as with the MA-1?

No, those are much more limited.

 

[Spocko]

No, those are much more limited.

Too true, but until MA1 is fixed, it's better than nothing - in my small editing studio (9' x 10' x 8') room correction is a must below 250Hz so we'll see how this works!

 

[audafreak]

Time will tell us. When I asked two “specialists” in chat on Neumann website about differences between KH120 mark II and KH150, they were telling me that KH150 has DSP and KH120II doesn’t )))
After many attempts from my side that it’s total nonsense and that both have DSP and that they have it on their website and when I copied these texts they said “Sorry”. )))))
So I’m at the beginning again. I know that amplifying is the same, tweeter is the same, DSP is the same and it seems that only woofer size and cabinet sizes is smaller. And the price is very nice (60% of KH150) and distortion above 200Hz is better than in case of KH150 which can go 5Hz lower. So I’m leaning towards the KH120II + some great SUB later. I think it should be great combo for rooms up to 25 square meters. I will wait for Amir’s test.

Maybe you was speaking to somebody from Sennheiser support and not directly Neumann . Big corporate.

If you plan to use MA1 then forget about any other than Neumann DSP subwoofers. All monitors must be compatible. Otherwise you have to use some other solution with all its possible disadvantages. Depends on your sound sources. Neumann solution is usable for any situation, completely transparent 2.0 to the rest of your system. It does not matter what you will connect them to.

 

[HQY]

I heard a saying as below regarding max SPL:
1x KH750>2x KH80s
1x KH750≌2x KH120s (original 120, not KH120II)
1x KH750<2x KH150, 2x KH750≌2xKH150
I use 1x KH750 with a pair of KH80. Occasionally, when I play loud, the KH750 could be overloaded and in red. So I'm wondering is a pair of KH750s could be better. Appreciate any comments.

 

[Spocko]

Maybe you was speaking to somebody from Sennheiser support and not directly Neumann . Big corporate.

If you plan to use MA1 then forget about any other than Neumann DSP subwoofers. All monitors must be compatible. Otherwise you have to use some other solution with all its possible disadvantages. Depends on your sound sources. Neumann solution is usable for any situation, completely transparent 2.0 to the rest of your system. It does not matter what you will connect them to.

Do you know if a pair of Neumann KH750 subwoofers can be optimized with the MA1? Multi-sub is really where its at with such software!

 

[AgentWet]

Maybe you was speaking to somebody from Sennheiser support and not directly Neumann . Big corporate.

If you plan to use MA1 then forget about any other than Neumann DSP subwoofers. All monitors must be compatible. Otherwise you have to use some other solution with all its possible disadvantages. Depends on your sound sources. Neumann solution is usable for any situation, completely transparent 2.0 to the rest of your system. It does not matter what you will connect them to.

If I will buy KH120II or KH150 I want to have a chance to combine them with some other SUB brand. I will not buy 2 or 4 KH750. I'm sure of it. And 1 KH750 can be insufficient as HQY mentioned below your post. 10" and 250W is IMHO not enough for small closed SUB. Why not to buy DUAL 13.8" and 1.200W SUB for almost same money as one KH750.
Not everybody wants to waste money and space in his room. If MA1 will not be able to work with different SUBs than I will prefer acoustic treatment and right positioning before EQ. And you always can lower some peaks with something cheap like UMIK1 and your ears.
I hope you can set up HPF on KH80/120II/150 even without MA1 mic, just through the app. And if you can set crossover point, order, phase and delay in the SUB app and of course level, EQ, ... then it should be fine even without MA1 calibration.

 

[Spocko]

If I will buy KH120II or KH150 I want to have a chance to combine them with some other SUB brand. I will not buy 2 or 4 KH750. I'm sure of it. And 1 KH750 can be insufficient as HQY mentioned below your post. 10" and 250W is IMHO not enough for small closed SUB. Why not to buy DUAL 13.8" and 1.200W SUB for almost same money as one KH750.
Not everybody wants to waste money and space in his room. If MA1 will not be able to work with different SUBs than I will prefer acoustic treatment and right positioning before EQ. And you always can lower some peaks with something cheap like UMIK1 and your ears.
I hope you can set up HPF on KH80/120II/150 even without MA1 mic, just through the app. And if you can set crossover point, order, phase and delay in the SUB app and of course level, EQ, ... then it should be fine even without MA1 calibration.

The problem is not the peaks as they can be easily addressed with EQ, the issue is the dead nulls where you lose 8dB or more - can't fix this with EQ (not even MA1). You need to either move the sub around or add a second sub.

You're absolutely right however - you can add four $400 10" subs in a room and get near flat response without much trouble for the price of one KH750.

 

[AgentWet]

The problem is not the peaks as they can be easily addressed with EQ, the issue is the dead nulls where you lose 8dB or more - can't fix this with EQ (not even MA1). You need to either move the sub around or add a second sub.

You're absolutely right however - you can add four $400 10" subs in a room and get near flat response without much trouble for the price of one KH750.

I know that I can't remove nulls with EQ. This makes null even worse and bigger and can only overload amps/speakers. Only receipt is positioning and broadband absorbers. And they are much better than any EQ and MA1 or whatever... You can EQ sound only for one place, but few inches away it will sound even worse. I'm not talking about 1-3db of tilting for brighter or darker sound etc. But as for big peaks and nulls, EQ is not the weapon number one. And I prefer 1 great SUB, then 4 cheap ones.

 

[Spocko]

And I prefer 1 great SUB, then 4 cheap ones.

This brings up a great question: at what price point does a sub's qualitative performance go from "cheap" to "great"? Obviously, $5,000 THX Dominus rated 10" subwoofer is great but when dropping to the lowest acceptable performance for "great" - what subwoofer would that be? The specs of the Monoprice THX 10" is arguably "great" as it sacrifices aesthetics and marketing for a direct to consumer model in order to sell it at $650, but can "great" be had with the $600 SVS SB1000 or even the $450 RSL Speedwoofer?