• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC

OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Thank you for your point. Even though I will continue using my L&R sub-woofers Yamaha YST-SW1000, I feel the 60 Hz - 500 Hz response of AMPHION Argon 3S rather disappointing.
 
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Only if I do not care about the price, I assume MAGICO A1, 6.5" Graphen Nano-Tec Midbass, 48 lbs. (22 kg!), would be the best choice.;)
The dimensions, 15.6”H x 12”D x 8.5”W (39.62cm x 30.48cm x 21.59cm), as well as the aesthetic elements look perfect for my possible setup.
WS002604.JPG


WS002605.JPG


I found the Fq response data here, and again I would like to use it together with L&R sub-woofers YST-SW1000. MAGICO A1 would be my another dream SP.
 
Last edited:

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
11,168
Likes
10,753
Location
Canada
Only if I do not care about the price, I assume MAGICO A1, 6.5" Graphen Nano-Tec Midbass, 48 lbs. (22 kg!), would be the best choice.;)
The dimensions, 15.6”H x 12”D x 8.5”W (39.62cm x 30.48cm x 21.59cm), as well as the aesthetic elements look perfect for my possible setup.
View attachment 165744

View attachment 165745

I found the Fq response data here, and again I would like to use it together with L&R sub-woofers YST-SW1000. MAGICO A1 would be my another dream SP.
The Magico A1 is a wonderful speaker. So much cool technology.
They are rated @4Ω dipping down to ~3.4Ω and sensitivity is rated @ 82.53dB (averaged 300Hz-3kHz on Listening Window, 2.83V/1m). It is a acoustic suspension too and has one set of binding posts on the backside.

These seem to be a speaker that a person would not open and not change the crossover connections so that a bi-amp'd connection could be made. It would be sacrilege to only use the woofers.
Do you have the amp power to drive these Magico A1 speakers? I'm thinking they are power hungry. :D
 
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Just like I shared in my post here, If I would decide adding a pair of Magico A1 in my setup, I will first to try driving A1s by SP-B (SpeakerOut -B) of Yamaha A-S3000 amplifier which also drives my present Yamaha woofers by SP-A output, so that I will easily and flexibly hear SP-A only, SP-B only, and even SP-A+SP-B, using the SP selector of Yamaha A-S3000. I believe Yamaha A-S3000 (spec here) is powerful enough driving Magico A1, isn't it?

Of course I understand that the signal would go through A1's LC-network when use intact A1; after the test and evaluation, I may make A1's mid-low driver active by elimination of LC-network, if I can access to the inside; this maybe easy for me by just unmount the driver, change wiring, and remount the driver, I assume. If I care the price (and I should!), these are still my dream procedures.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
11,168
Likes
10,753
Location
Canada
I will first to try driving A1s by SP-B (SpeakerOut -B) of Yamaha A-S3000 amplifier which also drives my present Yamaha woofers by SP-A output, so that I will easily and flexibly hear SP-A only, SP-B only, and even SP-A+SP-B, using the SP selector of Yamaha A-S3000. I believe Yamaha A-S3000 (spec here) is powerful enough driving Magico A1, isn't it?
Not in A+B mode. That is going to be a difficult load for sure. In single speaker mode the A-S3000 will suffice. With both the A1 and the NS-1000 in parallel the minimum impedance will be ~1.88Ω
ns.png
 
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Thanks a lot, @Doodski, for your kind and important reminder! In case if I really would like to do A+B, I will add another A-S3000 or A-S3200 (or similar powerful amp) in my setup!

In any way, I will surely share in this thread and also PM you, if I would decide additional compact and vivid woofers in my system. This idea and plan would be one of my next enjoyable activities on this project thread in New Year.
 

headshake

Active Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
297
Likes
235
if you decide not to build and you want to sell the JA-801 I would be interested.
You can find them on ebay. (btw the bliesma Be dome specs just got released)

How to clean the yammy Be dome:


..

@dualazmak WOW your setup is crazy complex! Nice documentation!

Good luck with your woofer quest.
 
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Last edited:
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Hello friends,

After reading very exciting and interesting project thread by @headshake, and also after having nice and intensive PM communication and suggestions kindly given by @headshake and @gene_stl, now I have another attractive idea and plan for addition of "improved" woofers.

Such new idea and plan are based on the possible use of new SEAS EXTREME "L26ROY" (XM001-04) woofer (sub-woofer) unit to be installed in rather compact "sealed" woofer cabinet to cover ca. 30 Hz - 550 Hz, of course to be driven by dedicated powerful HiFi amplifier.

The spec and dimension of L26ROY are really attractive for my current additional "improved woofer" demands since L26ROY can be (or should be) mounted in rather compact (but should be rigid and heavy) "sealed" cabinet with no bass-reflex port nor passive radiator;
WS002663.JPG


This would be also nice in terms of aesthetic perspectives for easy (I hope so) approval from our chief interior coordinator, my wife;
WS002658.JPG

and,
WS002662.JPG


The SP box design information by SEAS (PDF drawing here) would strongly support my possible building of fully sealed SP cabinet in W330 x H330 x D400 mm (W13.0" x H13.0" x D15.7"), even if using rather thick and heavier 28 mm (1.1") thickness board.

Furthermore, this SPL diagram with that SEAS recommended SP cabinet is really impressive and attractive for me;
WS002660.JPG


I would prefer the red-line SPL shape in 30 Hz - 600 Hz which would be rather easily achieved by my multichannel digital XO/EQ setup, as I shared here and here. If this would be the case, then I may possibly eliminate (or minimize the volume/gain with high-cut at 35 Hz?) of current old L&R YST-SW1000 subwoofers having bass-reflex port.

Consequently, now I would like to put high (or highest) priority on this new idea with L26ROY in my additional improved woofer (plus subwoofer) plan to be pursued in the coming new year.

I would highly appreciate hearing your feedback, comments and/or suggestions regarding the above possible plan.

Because of the emerging new "omicron" variant of COVID-19 virus, on the other hand, I will soon be much more trapped by my medical/pharmaceutical consulting duties which would make significantly slow-down my progress in audio project from now on, though...

I wish all of you safe and peaceful Holiday Season and New Year.
 
Last edited:
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Hello friends,

I am still just planning and simulating SEAS XM001-04 L26ROY woofer (sub-woofer) in sealed (or ported) cabinet to be added in my setup which would be directly and dedicatedly driven by the amplifier Yamaha A-S3000 currently driving Yamaha NS-1000's 30 cm woofer JA-3058; I will be able to select either of L26ROY and JA-3058 depending on my (arbitrary?) preference and/or gerne of the music by Amplifier A-S3000's speaker selection switch, Speaker-A or Speaker-B.

I recently found this interesting article at Troels Gravesen's site. The author of the article, John, has DIY built L26ROY in 40L sealed (looks so) cabinet, and he wrote;
> So how does it sound? All told very well, the bass is very tight with no boom and I can now play Hot Chip’s “Coming On Strong” CD without having to worry that the W18E001’s cones popping out of their cores.

I assume the air pressure damping of 40L sealed cabinet would effectively contribute to the "very tight with no boom" of the bass sound.

Having this encouraging article, together with my very nice on-going PM discussions with @headshake and @gene_stl, I am also designing and simulating a cubic cabinet for L26ROY in outer dimension of W415 x H415 x D415 mm (W16.34" x H16.34" x D16.34") with two 5 cm (1.97") diameter bass-reflex ports (can be tightly closed to change into sealed cabinet) on the front;

WS002803.JPG


If I would build this cubic cabinet with hard board of 35 mm (1.38") thickness, then the inner air volume would be ca. 41L.
Even after having suitable inner corner treatments and reinforcement frames/crosspieces, the inner volume could be 38L - 40L, quite similar to the above article's DIY build.

As I really also would like to test/evaluate the front bass-reflex design (trade-off between fast transient kick-up/fade-out responses and low frequency limit, I understand), either or both of the ports would be tightly closed with disks and screws.

BTW, SEAS's sole import dealer in Japan currently does not list XM001-04 L26ROY, and I have sent my inquiry to the dealer for the availability with proper warranties; I know that I may place order at a few of European web shops, though.

In consideration of my listening room environment, I am avoiding rear bass-reflex port(s) since the sliding doors behind the SPs are opened (usually) or closed (occasionally) during my listening sessions. I also excluded the possible use of passive radiator (SEAS has one for L26ROY, though) since it would be highly possible that I would decide the cabinet to be fully sealed; I will continue to using my L&R large and heavy sub-woofer Yamaha YST-SW1000 at least in 15 Hz - 45 Hz zone even after the possible installation of L26ROY.

Consequently, please note that my possible plan with SEAS XM001-04 L26ROY is still on paper and on PC simulations.
 
Last edited:

dartinbout

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
27
Likes
12
Let me go back to the full ASIO I/O with EKIO.

Edit on October 29, 2021 adding one sentence:
I also summarized the contents of this post
at here for easier understandings.

Since EKIO does not have its own ASIO driver (but DePhonica has it), we need to install these three before EKIO;

VB-Audio Virtual Cable;
VBCABLE_Driver_Pack43.zip (1.09 MB - OCT 2015), Donationware
https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/index.htm

VB-Audio Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge;
HiFiCableAsioBridgeSetup_v1007.zip (3.82 MB - MAR 2014) , Donationware
https://www.vb-audio.com/Cable/#DownloadASIOBridge

ASIO4ALL 2.14;
ASIO4ALL_2_14_English.exe (452 KB - MAY 2017)
http://www.asio4all.org/

I recommend you to install these three in this order, and just for sure, you may reboot your Windows 10 PC three times after each installation.

Then finally you need to install EKIO;
Ekio-1.0.6.0-install.exe (6.5MB, now Version 1.0.6.0, US$149 Net Price for one license)
http://www.lupisoft.com/ekio/

You can install EKIO in multiple PCs, and the purchased one license can activate only one PC's EKIO at one time.
Again, I recommend you to reboot your PC after installing EKIO.

VB-Audio Virtual Cable, VB-Audio Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge and ASIO4ALL automatically start-up with Windows 10 boot, but it takes a little while, ca. 10 - 20 sec, to fully start-up and sit behind all the sound features. You should not, therefore, be in a hurry to start Roon, Jriver MC, etc., as well as EKIO before the complete sitting of VB-Audio Virtual Cable, VB-Audio Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge and ASIO4ALL.

We should understand that ASIO4ALL is not only a universal ASIO driver but also a dominating software sitting in front of all the available ASIO and WDM audio devices.

Edit on October 29, 2021 adding this one additional diagram:
View attachment 161911


Like many other currently available crossover solutions, EKIO is a software crossover handling and processing all the sound in 24bit 192kHz, we should be careful enough to configure all the I/O in 24bit 192kHz. I will discuss the total sound quality of EKIO later on; here I just inform you that EKIO's sound quality is really nice even in 24bit 192kHz processing.

Now let me show you the full ASIO I/O establishment into/from EKIO with using JRiver MC26 as music player.

For your first trial, I would suggest to start and configure JRiver before the start-up of EKIO. Now you can select ASIO4ALL v2 (ASIO) driver as Audio Device for JRiver;
View attachment 57975

In the ... DSP & out put format (DSP Studio), all should be set in 192kHz;
View attachment 57976
and "Bitstreaming" should be "None" to make sure all the DSD music should be also down-sampled into 192 kHz 24bit.
View attachment 57977

Now you may start playing a music track, and ASIO4ALLv2 - Media Center26 icon appears in task bar, click it. You can see ASIO4ALL is dominating all the sound devices;
View attachment 57978
If not selected, just select only "VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable" - Out: 8x8-384kHz, 24Bits. And for the first time, set the Latency Compesation and ASIO Buffer size as sown above. The change of the setting forces JRiver to stop playing, then you may again direct JRiver to play a music track; now the ASIO4ALL - Media Center panel is in all OK status as shown above.

Now in the backyard, VB-Audio Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge is allocating/bridging the music signal into "VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable in:" for EKIO's processing.

OK, while JRiver is playing a music track, you may start EKIO and open one of your EKIO configuration files, like the one example for my 10-channel simulation configuration, then go to Settings to select 192000 Sampling Rate and ASIO4ALL driver with 5120 buffer size;
View attachment 57996

Now the second ASIO4ALL icon of "ASIO4ALL v2 - Ekio" appears in task bar, click it;
View attachment 57997
Select only "VB Audio Hi-Fi Cable" - "In: 8x8-384kHz, 24Bits" and your DAC ASIO driver to which you would like to send the crossover channels, in this example I use "OPPO Sonica DAC USB AUDIO2.0 ASIO". For the first time, also set the Latency Compensation and ASIO Buffer Size as shown above. In order to reflect these ASIO4ALL setting for EKIO, you do need to go back to EKIO's "Settings", select "None" at the Driver selection, and then select "ASIO4ALL" again. Please check the ASIO4ALL -EKIO is OK now as shown in the above image.

Then we may go to Inputs/Outputs panel, where you can select VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable 1 for INPUT-L channel, and VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable 2 for INPUT-R channel;View attachment 58000
Also now you may allocate each of the output channels into your DAC. In this example, I allocated all the channels into my OPPO SONICA DAC appearing as "DAC USB AUDIO 2.0 DAC1" for L channels, and "DAC USB AUDIO 2.0 DAC2" for R channels.
View attachment 58009

Go to the Routing panel to check and confirm the proper routing;
View attachment 58002


Finally, you would go back to the Inputs/Outputs panel, and please push the "STOPPED" button at the upper right corner to change into "PLAYING". Now you can see and hear that EKIO is playing by sending all the channels into your selected DAC;
View attachment 58003
You may see and check that ASIO BRIDGE is working in the backyard by clicking the ASIO BRIDGE icon in the task bar;

View attachment 58004

You may also go to the Windows Kernel Mixer, and check the all the devices in Sound-Off but still you can see and hear the music through EKIO without using Windows WASAPI and Kernel Mixer;
View attachment 58005

This is what I could establish full ASIO I/O into/from EKIO, and we can do essentially the same with Roon.

In case you would like to hear YouTube, streaming radio, etc. using your preferred web browser, just select Hi-Fi Cable Input as default audio device and configure it in 24bit 192kHz so that EKIO can process it; sorry about my Windows is in Japanese but it should be well understandable for you all;View attachment 58006

I hope some of you would join me in trying EKIO, and share, as well as discuss, about it in this thread.
Hi

Thank you for the clear instructions to achieve multichannel output of 192000 using these drivers and J. River. I have a great many albums in multichannel formats above that bitrate. The DAC8Pro will play DSD128 in native 5.1 using J.River, only if I don't specify an output format in the DSP Studio. If I do, the Okto plays loud static from all channels until I manually power cycle it. If I try sending it multichannel DSD256 and above J.River complains it can't output. I am not concerned with 2 channel DSD256 as I use my Topping DX7Pro as a preamp and send that through a 3x3 XLR switcher to my amp.

TLDR: How do I resample multichannel DSD256 and above to the Okto atDSD128? I've tried HQPlayer, Foobar2000 and Roon with the same results as J.River.
 

jhaider

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
1,854
Likes
2,628
BTW, SEAS's sole import dealer in Japan currently do not list XM001-04 L26ROY, and I have sent my inquiry to the dealer for the availability with proper warranties; I know that I may place order at a few of European web shops, though.

L26ROY is a fine woofer, but if it is not available to you under the conditions you want there are plenty of reasonable alternatives for your application. Three that spring to mind are the 10" ScanSpeak Discovery (the sub not the woofer), Tymphany/Peerless SDF, and SB Acoustics SW26 shallow.
 
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
L26ROY is a fine woofer, but if it is not available to you under the conditions you want there are plenty of reasonable alternatives for your application. Three that spring to mind are the 10" ScanSpeak Discovery (the sub not the woofer), Tymphany/Peerless SDF, and SB Acoustics SW26 shallow.

Thank you for your kind suggestions on alternative woofer units.

Since I am not in a hurry building new woofer+cabinet, I would like to wait until I would receive (hopefully positive) feedback from the sole import dealer in Japan for SEAS SP units.
 
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Hi

Thank you for the clear instructions to achieve multichannel output of 192000 using these drivers and J. River. I have a great many albums in multichannel formats above that bitrate. The DAC8Pro will play DSD128 in native 5.1 using J.River, only if I don't specify an output format in the DSP Studio. If I do, the Okto plays loud static from all channels until I manually power cycle it. If I try sending it multichannel DSD256 and above J.River complains it can't output. I am not concerned with 2 channel DSD256 as I use my Topping DX7Pro as a preamp and send that through a 3x3 XLR switcher to my amp.

TLDR: How do I resample multichannel DSD256 and above to the Okto atDSD128? I've tried HQPlayer, Foobar2000 and Roon with the same results as J.River.

Hello @dartinbout,

I also have many HiRes tracks; my music library consists of CD ripped 44.1 kHz 16 bit tracks, HiRes FLAC tracks and DSD128, DSD256, DSD512 tracks.

I play all of my music tracks in 192 kHz or 96 kHz, by JRiver's on-the-fly DSP down-sampling or up-sampling, as I need to do digital XO/EQ in the same PC by software "EKIO".

I feel now 192 kHz (up to 96 kHz in stereo) or 96 kHz (up to 48 kHz stereo) would be sufficient and good enough as I configure low-pass (high-cut) 48 dB/Oct filters at 25 kHz to avoid ultra high frequency noises over 30 kHz frequently associating with improperly processed/mastered (poor quality control) HiRes sources. Please refer to my posts;
- "Near ultrasound - ultrasound" ultra-high frequency (UHF) noises in improperly engineered/processed HiRes music tracks, and EKIO's XO-EQ configuration to cut-off such noises: #362-#386
 
Last edited:

mikessi

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
13
Likes
18
Hello friends,

I am still just planning and simulating SEAS XM001-04 L26ROY woofer (sub-woofer) in sealed (or ported) cabinet to be added in my setup which would be directly and dedicatedly driven by the amplifier Yamaha A-S3000 currently driving Yamaha NS-1000's 30 cm woofer JA-3058; I will be able to select either of L26ROY and JA-3058 depending on my (arbitrary?) preference and/or gerne of the music by Amplifier A-S3000's speaker selection switch, Speaker-A or Speaker-B.

I recently found this interesting article at Troels Gravesen's site. The author of the article, John, has DIY built L26ROY in 40L sealed (looks so) cabinet, and he wrote;
> So how does it sound? All told very well, the bass is very tight with no boom and I can now play Hot Chip’s “Coming On Strong” CD without having to worry that the W18E001’s cones popping out of their cores.

I assume the air pressure damping of 40L sealed cabinet would effectively contribute to the "very tight with no boom" of the bass sound.

Having this encouraging article, together with my very nice on-going PM discussions with @headshake and @gene_stl, I am also designing and simulating a cubic cabinet for L26ROY in outer dimension of W415 x H415 x D415 mm (W16.34" x H16.34" x D16.34") with two 5 cm (1.97") diameter bass-reflex ports (can be tightly closed to change into sealed cabinet) on the front;

View attachment 173326

If I would build this cubic cabinet with hard board of 35 mm (1.38") thickness, then the inner air volume would be ca. 41L.
Even after having suitable inner corner treatments and reinforcement frames/crosspieces, the inner volume could be 38L - 40L, quite similar to the above article's DIY build.

As I really also would like to test/evaluate the front bass-reflex design (trade-off between fast transient kick-up/fade-out responses and low frequency limit, I understand), either or both of the ports would be tightly closed with disks and screws.

BTW, SEAS's sole import dealer in Japan currently do not list XM001-04 L26ROY, and I have sent my inquiry to the dealer for the availability with proper warranties; I know that I may place order at a few of European web shops, though.

In consideration of my listening room environment, I am avoiding rear bass-reflex port(s) since the sliding doors behind the SPs are opened (usually) or closed (occasionally) during my listening sessions. I also excluded the possible use of passive radiator (SEAS has one for L26ROY, though) since it would be highly possible that I would decide the cabinet to be fully sealed; I will continue to using my L&R large and heavy sub-woofer Yamaha YST-SW1000 at least in 15 Hz - 45 Hz zone even after the possible installation of L26ROY.

Consequently, please note that my possible plan with SEAS XM001-04 L26ROY is still on paper and on PC simulations.

With all of the additions you've already made to your NS1000, you're considering yet another add-on mod!:D

I can't help ask -- instead of continuing to patch the system to compensate for shortcomings in the NS1000, why not just assemble a new integrated loudspeaker from the components?

The woofer in the NS1000 really isn't anything special. Any number of modern woofers, including the Seas L26ROY, surpass its performance in a myriad of ways.

And afaik, you're using the NS1000 entirely in active crossover mode, right? And by now you have something like a UMIK2 mic? (if not, it's a modestly priced & amazingly useful tool for a audio enthusiast!)

So why not assemble a Seas L26ROY + the domes from the NS1000 in a modern low-diffraction enclosure? The Seas woofer is certainly good to 1kHz, so that's no challenge at all. Even use 2 of those woofer per side, in a 3.5 way setup and retire the subs. You could also replace the tweeter with a modern dome like a Bliesma or Textreme SBAcoustics to eliminate the supertweeter. Use the DSP functions in your crossover software to optimize the system with presets -- one for classical, another for jazz -- and switch at your convenience.

Surely your loving spouse would approve of the clutter reduction. ;) (It might even improve your room acoustics!)

PS -- I seem to be coming from a Marie Kondo pov, don't I? :eek::p I haven't read or watched anything by her but I have to admit I've become a bit obsessed recently about simplifying all aspects of my life -- including my audio systems.

PSS: An ideal low-mid driver between woofer and mid dome would be the 16cm satori textreme driver -- maybe a bit expensive, but it would give a lot of options for crossover points for both low and high pass. The range it might cover 200~1000 Hz is from a little below middle C to two octaves higher: Musically, that is the heart of midrange where some 60-70% of most musical energy falls.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
With all of the additions you've already made to your NS1000, you're considering yet another add-on mod!:D

I can't help ask -- instead of continuing to patch the system to compensate for shortcomings in the NS1000, why not just assemble a new integrated loudspeaker from the components?

The woofer in the NS1000 really isn't anything special. Any number of modern woofers, including the Seas L26ROY, surpass its performance in a myriad of ways.

And afaik, you're using the NS1000 entirely in active crossover mode, right? And by now you have something like a UMIK2 mic? (if not, it's a modestly priced & amazingly useful tool for a audio enthusiast!)

So why not assemble a Seas L26ROY + the domes from the NS1000 in a modern low-diffraction enclosure? The Seas woofer is certainly good to 1kHz, so that's no challenge at all. Even use 2 of those woofer per side, in a 3.5 way setup and retire the subs. You could also replace the tweeter with a modern dome like a Bliesma or Textreme SBAcoustics to eliminate the supertweeter. Use the DSP functions in your crossover software to optimize the system with presets -- one for classical, another for jazz -- and switch at your convenience.

Surely your loving spouse would approve of the clutter reduction. ;) (It might even improve your room acoustics!)

PS -- I seem to be coming from a Marie Kondo pov, don't I? :eek::p I haven't read or watched anything by her but I have to admit I've become a bit obsessed recently about simplifying all aspects of my life -- including my audio systems.

Hello @mikessi,

Thank you so much for your nice suggestions!

Some of my audio enthu friends in Japan also suggesting the similar direction of "say thanks and goodbye to NS-1000 cabinets". It would be possible that I will move onto that direction only after fully evaluating L26ROY in comparison with Yamaha 30 cm woofer JA-3058 (rather outdated and nothing special with it). I fully agree with you that only the Yamaha Be-midrange JA-0801 is still really amazing (still the best?) covering 500 Hz - 6,000 Hz. If that direction would be really the case, I will start a new project thread...

As we have discussed rather intensively in our posts #321-#342, however, I have been sticking to NS-1000 cabinet (and the three Yamaha SP drivers) throughout this project thread. Furthermore, I and my wife love the aesthetics and the total sound of current setup together with subwoofer YST-SW1000 and super tweeter T925A.

One of my other concerns is that I do not have my "DIY SP building factory/workshop" like your very nice place. I recently started nice communication, therefore, with a few small SP building factories/companies who can cooperate/collaborate with me in designing, building (and measuring) SPs, hopefully in reasonable (acceptable) costs within my DIY budget, and locate within 4-hour one-way driving distance from my home so that I could make one-day round trip.

I wonder and dream how much fun it would be if I lived nearby in your wonderful DIY workshop.

Yes, we are also a little bit affected by Marie KONDO, and we have already started "simplifying" our lifestyle, but my audio system is still out of the scope.;)
 
Last edited:

mikessi

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
13
Likes
18
Here's an on-axis FR @ 12" + distortion sweep of a used JA0801 BE dome mid (Yamaha from NS1000) that I did a while ago. It's only one sample, but the other one I have measures pretty closely. I failed to record drive voltage. I'm pretty sure it was not much more than 2.8V -- ie, quite low, so HD results are not that useful. But thought it worth sharing anyway. Will try measuring again soon -- just a bit too cold in the lab right now.

Also attached are FR at 1" (or closer) and 0.5m -- again levels are a bit too low, but they show the general curve.
 

Attachments

  • JA0801-1ft.jpg
    JA0801-1ft.jpg
    199.2 KB · Views: 31
  • Yamaha-JA0801-fr.jpg
    Yamaha-JA0801-fr.jpg
    77.7 KB · Views: 34
OP
dualazmak

dualazmak

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2020
Messages
1,269
Likes
1,387
Location
Ichihara City, Chiba Prefecture, Japan
Hello @mikessi,

Thank you so much for your measurement data for Yamaha Be-midrange dome JA-0801; I seldom measure SP unit in raw by sine sweep for safety reasons. Your data are really informative and encouraging me to stick on JA-0801.

Just for your reference, attached please find the catalog for NS-1000/NS-1000M, where Yamaha showed FR/SPL and distortion data for JA-0801;
WS002813.JPG
These Yamaha's data look quite identical to your second diagram at 1" and 0.5 m.

In the attached catalog, Yamaha also stated that JA-0801 was (is) designed to secure the low Fo of 300 Hz (!) and extremely low distortions (and hence very high sound quality) which make excellent smooth continuity between JA-3058 woofer. I usually/currently cross at 500 Hz with 12db/Oct LR filter, and I assume I may safely go down to around 400 Hz with 2nd-order distortion below 70 dB.

I would like to keep, however, the cross point at 500 Hz with enough safety and distortion margins, since I really would like to protect my treasure JA-0801 for many years or hopefully forever.

I agree with your PM suggestion that the distortion level somewhat goes down (by ca. 5 dB?) over 700 Hz which may contribute further cleanliness and better "sonolity" of JA-0801 at 1 kHz to 6 kHz. I am now carefully subjectively testing by my ears and brain on this, since my JA-3058 woofers now sing very nicely up to around 800 Hz thanks to directly and dedicatedly driven by powerful integrated amplifier Yamaha A-S3000.

BTW, I myself am always rather interested in "FR shapes" at various stages of digital and analog signals before going into the SP units (to see and confirm the XO/EQ configurations), and also in real air sound at listening position in my room environment while L & R SPs singing in my normal music listening volume/gain level, as shared here through here.

Consequently, my current best tuned (for my ears and brain) total FR shape at listening position with all of the SP units singing is like this, as shared in my post #411;
WS002374.JPG


You would please note that all of my "FR/SPL shape" measurements were performed by my rather naive "Cumulative White Noise Averaging" method (not by sine sweep) which summarized and confirmed in my post here as follows;
1. the method is universally applicable in the stages of digital out of crossover software (EKIO), DAC's analog out, amplifier SP out, and of course in the actual room SP air sound,
2. the method is accurate, sensitive and reproducible, having little or no statistical fluctuation, because of the FFT averaging analysis on the "accumulated rich data" of the recorded signal/sound,
3. the recorded "white noise tracks" can be re-analyzed any way, anytime, afterwards,
4. flexible mix-paste (sound mixing) can be done to virtually simulate any combination of the channels, especially in amplifiers' SP out signals before going into SP drivers,
5. if needed, the environmental "continuous room back ground noise" can be reduced/removed by the Adobe Audition's "noise capture - noise reduction" function,
6. if needed, suitable gain/level adjustment can be applied for "level matched comparison" of Fq response shapes between the different series of the recorded data,

7. flexible and suitable FFT size (as smoothing intensity) can be selected depending on the frequency zone of interest.
 

Attachments

  • ns_1000m_catalog.pdf
    1.9 MB · Views: 19
Last edited:

mikessi

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
13
Likes
18
You can find them on ebay. (btw the bliesma Be dome specs just got released)

How to clean the yammy Be dome:


..

@dualazmak WOW your setup is crazy complex! Nice documentation!

Good luck with your woofer quest.
Good find of the dome cleaning video! Two questions for any Russian speakers here (I presume that's the language in the video? Correct me if I'm wrong!):

1. What's the liquid in the syringe he's using to soften the rubber ring seal/glue? Alcohol?
2. The liquid in the plastic bottle must be plain water? Maybe distilled water?

The guy seems almost cavalier using cotton pads to scrub the beryllium dome surface! It must be a lot tougher than I've thought before.
 
Top Bottom