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The "other" German Speaker Manufacturers (Canton, Magnat, Heco, Quadral, ...) - Where do they stand?

Gurkerl

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On this site and other US-focused communities you read a lot about ELAC, Neumann, Kii, and (to a lesser extent) about Adam, Hedd etc. - and rightfully so, as their speaker designs are usually well-engineered and highly regarded. In the case of Neumann and Kii they are even regarded as SOTA in their given use cases.

Operating primarily in Europe, you naturally read/hear less about the "other" German speaker manufacturers in the US-based HiFi scene. Brands like Canton, Magnat, Heco, Quadral and so on can be found in Big Box stores all throughout Europe, and on the Second Hand market with heavy discounts. These are quite big companies, which produce a lot products per year. They are featured a lot in German Hi-Fi magazines (duh), where one can find measurements of some models - though usually hidden behind paywalls.

I am now wondering what one can expect from these companies. From what can be found online, they seem competent and reasonably priced - although not really state of the art in the strictest sense.
Here for example are measurements of the relatively new Quadral Signum 90 - for a price of 900€ per pair, this looks surprisingly good. However, I don't know what measurement method was used, how accurate the results are.
Compared to the older, but more "high-end" Magnat Signature 1109 - this looks better, but also more smoothed? And bolder lines for some reason? Either way, it looks like it has good sensitivity and bass extension. New price was 4000€ I believe.
Another comparison, the previous generation Canton Vento 896 DC - seems rather linear, with what I assume to be a directivity error at 2.5khz? Since the current generation Vento has been out for a while, you can find these discounted at around 1800€ for the pair.

So where do these companies stand, in the grand scheme of things? Hard to say without full spinorama measurements, but for the price of some of their offerings, they seem to be viable options?
Any input would be greatly appreciated :)
 

thewas

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I think those German loudspeakers are not bad at all, look for example the most recent measured by Stereophile, which uses similar same drivers like the Vento:
Hope though that there would be more full spinoramas like from Amir and Erin available.
By the way that Quadral model has also fantastic SPL capabilities irrespective of price, even more of course for its very low price.
 
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Gurkerl

Gurkerl

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I think those German loudspeakers are not bad at all, look for example the most recent measured by Stereophile, which uses similar same drivers like the Vento:
Hope though that there would be more full spinoramas like from Amir and Erin available.
By the way that Quadral model has also fantastic SPL capabilities irrespective of price, even more of course for its very low price.
Thank you for the link! It truly looks like a great "budget" option, but I wonder how they got to that 109db number?

I would like to see some spins of the Nubert Nuvero series with BMR midrange drivers. They could be a good option with a very wide dispersion pattern.

Oh yeah, I forgot to include Nubert. I guess we can throw in Teufel too, but they are an even bigger question mark.
The nuVero 60 look quite good, although rather insensitive and spl limited. Not a full spin, obviously.
https://www.nubert.de/downloads/test-2015-08-nuvero-60-stereoplay.pdf

Or here: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/nubert-nuvero-60-11921
 

thewas

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Thank you for the link! It truly looks like a great "budget" option, but I wonder how they got to that 109db number?
They write about it in the till yesterday current "Audio" issue, mainly having 2.5 ways with three (two different kinds) specialised (mid)woofers which were designed such to reach their max SPL simultaneously, seems state of art engineering.
 

tomtoo

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I dont care. State of the art engineering means, do measurements show them.

All the rest we can discuss later.
 

thewas

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I dont care. State of the art engineering means, do measurements show them.
I referred the "state of art" to the max SPL and there the measurements from Stereoplay/Audio exactly show that great performance (109 dB), especially for that price class.
 

tomtoo

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I referred the "state of art" to the max SPL and there the measurements from Stereoplay/Audio exactly show that great performance (109 dB), especially for that price class.

I like to see that from the german speaker manufactures. Well done measurements and spinorama. No dieselgate. True performers. Easy.
 
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Gurkerl

Gurkerl

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They write about it in the till yesterday current "Audio" issue, mainly having 2.5 ways with three (two different kinds) specialised (mid)woofers which were designed such to reach their max SPL simultaneously, seems state of art engineering.
Interesting! Is that for its whole frequency range? Also, do you know if that is for one speaker or for the pair?
 

thewas

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thewas

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I like to see that from the german speaker manufactures. Well done measurements and spinorama. No dieselgate. True performers. Easy.
Wish also but unfortunately almost no widely known hifi loudspeaker provides those openly on their websites or even manuals, not even from the Harman group where most spinoramas were just "leaked" in forums, for example even at Revel you don't find them https://www.revelspeakers.com/produ...r=Black-GLOBAL-Current&cgid=series-performabe

Dieselgate is also a different issue, when the written specs aren't met in reality, but wouldn't know any German or other loudspeakers where that was the case, usually they just don't specify the measuring method and limits which makes the numbers useless.
 
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Gurkerl

Gurkerl

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Another comparison, the previous generation Canton Vento 896 DC - seems rather linear, with what I assume to be a directivity error at 2.5khz? Since the current generation Vento has been out for a while, you can find these discounted at around 1800€ for the pair.
As it turns out, Canton announced its newest update to the Vento series just three days after I was typing this :p

The flagship of the series (Vento 100) grew a few inches, the new Vento 90 is the equivalent to the previous 896.2 DC, and the 896 DC before that. Optical changes have been made (the new models are edgier) as well as technological (how much of that is marketing I don't know) - no measurements whatsoever unsurprisingly.

Kinda funny, as a lot of dealers still have the "grandfather" 896 DC in stock, as well as the newer 896.2 DC
 

thewas

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Kinda funny, as a lot of dealers still have the "grandfather" 896 DC in stock, as well as the newer 896.2 DC
Even funnier some shops offer even 2 generations before that, namely 890 DC and 890.2 DC, it seems Canton still produces older models on demand for some shops so they can offer them cheaper?...
 
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Gurkerl

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I would be surprised if there are a lot of differences between these models. They still follow the overall same principle, the waveguide doesn't seem to have changed at all, the drivers only a little bit.
Even going back almost 12 years, the Vento 890 DC holds up fairly well, albeit with early bass roll-off.

Even funnier some shops offer even 2 generations before that, namely 890 DC and 890.2 DC, it seems Canton still produces older models on demand for some shops so they can offer them cheaper?...
Are you sure that's not just old stock? :D
 

MarcosCh

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The good thing is as well that the german second hand market is flooded with them. I bought a pair of 890dc for 650 eur and to my ears it was one of my best hifi investments
 

Nango

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I referred the "state of art" to the max SPL and there the measurements from Stereoplay/Audio exactly show that great performance (109 dB), especially for that price class.
Stereoplay and Audio magazines are same league like Darko. Shouldn't be mentioned as reference for nothing here as this site has a science approach.
 
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thewas

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I would be surprised if there are a lot of differences between these models. They still follow the overall same principle, the waveguide doesn't seem to have changed at all, the drivers only a little bit.
Even going back almost 12 years, the Vento 890 DC holds up fairly well, albeit with early bass roll-off.
Yes, it seems they mainly do cosmetic changes, some new membrane materials and different crossover tunings.

Are you sure that's not just old stock? :D
I am quite positive as some shops seem to sell them for ages and also had read about some shops having made and selling older versions just for them.
 

thewas

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Stereoplay and Audio magazines are same league like Darko. Shouldn't be mentioned as reference for nothing here as this site has a science approach.
Their texts might be, but they offer measurements of their lab which are serious and comparable. Also the reviews of Malte Ruhnke (used to be in Audio and now chief editor of Stereoplay) can be quite trusted as he was a knowledgeable loudspeaker guy who was even criticising the German magazines in the past.
 
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