Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[ahofer]

Saw this awesome measuring all in one at a flea market!

Just requires a three-phase power connection.

 

[Newman]

Saw this awesome measuring all in one at a flea market!

Hopefully that’s the European usage of decimal notation.

 

[Mikig]

Tutti sembrano essere esperti in tutto in questi giorni e tutte le opinioni sembrano richiedere lo stesso peso

yes, and I would also add that unfortunately, in the world, I am increasingly noticing that those who really have something to say are silent, those who have nothing to say are talking everywhere, with obvious repercussions on "common reason"...

as they say where I come from ..."whoever screams the loudest, the cow is his"...

 

[Bozon]

 

[Bozon]

 

[Deleted member 21219]

^^^ Ya still think he's not a troll?

Jim

 

[Beave]

 

[Galliardist]

^^^ Ya still think he's not a troll?

Jim

I don't see any other reason for those links. Maybe there's a crushing blow coming next that will convince us all to by Directstreams and those Odin Gold cables? I doubt it.

 

[bodhi]

Seems like the basic "I'm pretty sure my cover is blown, but I can't resist a few low effort pieces". But the openings were very good, leaves the benefit of doubt. Well done!

 

[HarmonicTHD]

 

[IAtaman]

Looks like Grandpa Paul could not be bothered to go to the office this time around and shot the video in his back garden?
I am not sure what is your intention, but you are not helping your case by quoting Grandpa Paul as a source. Unless your case is trolling, in which case, well done

 

[solderdude]

Didn't watch the clip... was there the usual 'weeeellllll' in there with wild theories trailing it ?

 

[MattHooper]

While I don't go for the "everything has a sound" nonsense, I still believe that one can have synergistic pairings of equipment. Some here, to the extent that is acknowledged, will just call it trying to mix and match colorations or whatever, but, hey, that's cool too.

I've found it numerous times myself. For instance when I had MBL speakers, which are bears to drive, the most counter-intuitive pairing was with an old Eico HF81 14/W integrated tube amp. It was overall perhaps my favourite sound I got out of those speakers! Likewise a pal had some small Totem floor standing speakers, like really small two-ways, and I've only ever thought Totem sounded "ok" at best. But he had them paired up with this single ended tube amps and a great vinyl front end and my god did they sound glorious. I couldn't believe it. Huge, rich, spacious, smooth, organic, the whole package (for my taste). Next time I was over I wanted to hear the Totems again but he had them hooked up to a different system upstairs, small hegel integrated amp, streaming music. It was like they sort of deflated, just wasn't nearly as compelling sounding.

(And anyone looking for more rigorous data just got what they paid for those anecdotes...I'm just voicing an opinion)

 

[bodhi]

While I don't go for the "everything has a sound" nonsense, I still believe that one can have synergistic pairings of equipment. Some here, to the extent that is acknowledged, will just call it trying to mix and match colorations or whatever, but, hey, that's cool too.

Totem speakers and tube amps? Yeah, that would be exactly what it should be called.

Has about as much to do with hifi than trying different types of weed to change the listening experience.

And I really think there is nothing wrong with that, could see myself meddling with tubes and such if I had unlimited money.

 

[voodooless]

I've found it numerous times myself. For instance when I had MBL speakers, which are bears to drive, the most counter-intuitive pairing was with an old Eico HF81 14/W integrated tube amp. It was overall perhaps my favourite sound I got out of those speakers! Likewise a pal had some small Totem floor standing speakers, like really small two-ways, and I've only ever thought Totem sounded "ok" at best. But he had them paired up with this single ended tube amps and a great vinyl front end and my god did they sound glorious. I couldn't believe it. Huge, rich, spacious, smooth, organic, the whole package (for my taste). Next time I was over I wanted to hear the Totems again but he had them hooked up to a different system upstairs, small hegel integrated amp, streaming music. It was like they sort of deflated, just wasn't nearly as compelling sounding.

Well, the more flawed your products are, the more they will alter the sound. In case of tube amps, it’s very clear what happens. So yes, one flaw may fix another, and you can call that synergy all day long. But modern electronics are way beyond flawed (exceptions may prove the rule). There is nothing to fix, really. If your speakers are flawed, your amps aren’t going to fix that. You either hope that you can EQ them, or you different speakers.

The guy in the second video has a rack full of flawed amps. No wonder he has a hard time with them. And he’s wrong about the “you’ll have to listen” bit. You can easily measure what these amps do with the speakers, and I’m sure that the best sounding one (if we do this blind) will show why in the frequency response. I think we can even have them all sound exactly the same by EQ’ing them all to the same response.

All in all, this is just a highly flawed, convoluted, cumbersome and expensive way to achieve the best sound, especially if we’re talking about modern electronics. It’s like hunting ghosts. No wonder people spend decades “refining” their systems, going through DAC after DAC, amp after amp, and ending up still not satisfied. Maybe for a while, until the next hype product surfaces with great reviews, and one has to give it a go. It just doesn’t work!

Let’s not even get us started about the “cables add colour” comment from Papa Paul

 

[GXAlan]

While I don't go for the "everything has a sound" nonsense, I still believe that one can have synergistic pairings of equipment.

I had a dentist who waffled on about how great Schiit tube gear was and how some things simply couldn't be measured. He is no longer my dentist.

I am in the stance that everything that can heard can be measured but not everything measured can be heard.

But I would argue vinyl LPs as something that may be an illusion/imagination and something that cannot easily be “measured” or more precisely “explained.”

You can take an average vinyl LP vinyl and a clean CD and compare the two and easily ABX it. There is no doubt that the difference is real and not imagined.

But the perception that the vinyl LP can be more enjoyable is one that cannot easily be explained based upon the measurements.

A good number of vinyl enthusiasts do, in fact, like listening to the LP. You could just as easily buy the album and read the liner notes/support the artist and still choose to listen to the digital version. Some have argued that it’s the dynamic range of the mix/master being different, others have argued that the brain fills in the details that are masked by surface noise and the brain delivers a better aural experience. Others may say it’s purely hype/media. Yet many modern inductees into the vinyl club stay.

There is an equally long thread that comes to the conclusion that maybe enjoying “hi-fi” can still be “mid-fi”.

So your dentist’s bedside manner and technical skill aside, it’s not “against science” to prefer tubes and say that it’s not rational based upon the measurements.

To people who buy stories about how distortion sounds better than a clean signal. That mid-fi is better than hi-fi.

At some point, you'll have enough noise and/or distortion (usually noise... Distortion in music is pretty tough to hear until it's pretty high) that it's identifiable, but mostly people hear what they want and expect and paid good money to hear (dammit!).

We talk about THD, and we all know the Klippel comparison but it’s probably other non linearities that make tubes different when designed to be different.

Tubes seem to have higher crosstalk. @DonH56 explained

• Crosstalk in phase will increase focus on the middle (center) and reduce the image (worst case = mono).
• Crosstalk out of phase will reduce the center content and widen the image (worst case = "hole in the middle" effect).
• Random amplitude and phase will do something in between.

You can obviously measure crosstalk but what degree of focus or widening is preferred is a different story.

 

[voodooless]

So your dentist’s bedside manner and technical skill aside, it’s not “against science” to prefer tubes and say that it’s not rational based upon the measurements.

But the argument isn’t about preference. It was about the measureability of said preference. He basically asserts that magic exists Maybe he knows the tooth fairy?

 

[ahofer]

Has about as much to do with hifi than trying different types of weed to change the listening experience.

Works a lot better than changing electronics.

I'd add to @GXAlan 's comment that some tests show people preferring MP3 to lossless. Neither surprises me. We gravitate to familiar experiences that trigger good sense memories. If you have fond memories of listening to albums, a little bit of needle drop, static, noise, microphonics, and low-frequency blending can immediately bring back a good feeling. I also have good memories of listening to the white album on reel-to-reel (a copy made from an album...).

But those memories can be supplanted. I simply could not abide what most piano recordings sounded like on vinyl. Either distorting, compressed, or distant. Even as the sound of strings on vinyl could be pleasant, while less realistic (if you ever sit near string players). But I switched to CD so thoroughly in the 1980s that I replaced many of those good memories.

 

[DonR]

But the argument isn’t about preference. It was about the measureability of said preference. He basically asserts that magic exists Maybe he knows the tooth fairy?

Exactly. I don't care about his preferences, regardless of how many times he mentioned them, it is his dismissal of objective data and his belief in something unmeasurable that irked me. That and his seemingly psychic ability to find tooth decay that no other dentist could.

 

[ahofer]

his seemingly psychic ability to find tooth decay that no other dentist could.

It all makes work for the working man to do.

Keynes at work

Digging holes and filling them in again, West London style

www.economist.com