Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[aeroborne]

Dear fellow audio scientists,

I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues. I have a short question, which is both fundamental and specific so I would love to hear what you think.

I have listened to a couple of decent speakers in the sub 5k Euro range (such as ATC SMC40, KEF R700, Heco Celan 9). I just replaced my KEF R500 with Heco Elementa (Similar to Celan 7 I was told), as I find them way may more resolving in the mid and upper register (500 Hz and up). It looks like this is not specific to my chain, which comprises a RaspberryPi with Volumio -> Onkyo P3000R -> Onkyo M-5000R. In my case, I assume the lower end is amplified with some loss of detail. However, I am in love with the looks of the M-5000R and I am not looking for a replacement.

I have been testing a few budget but well reviewed DACs (up to 500 Euro/USD – SMSL, Topping) which feature the newest chips as opposed to my Onkyo’s twin Burr Brown PCM1795, which was excellent a decade ago. To my surprise, the external DACs sound so similar to the Onkyo that I cannot tell any difference. My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Dee

 

[flipflop]

My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

The former.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Dear fellow audio scientists,

I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues. I have a short question, which is both fundamental and specific so I would love to hear what you think.

I have listened to a couple of decent speakers in the sub 5k Euro range (such as ATC SMC40, KEF R700, Heco Celan 9). I just replaced my KEF R500 with Heco Elementa (Similar to Celan 7 I was told), as I find them way may more resolving in the mid and upper register (500 Hz and up). It looks like this is not specific to my chain, which comprises a RaspberryPi with Volumio -> Onkyo P3000R -> Onkyo M-5000R. In my case, I assume the lower end is amplified with some loss of detail. However, I am in love with the looks of the M-5000R and I am not looking for a replacement.

I have been testing a few budget but well reviewed DACs (up to 500 Euro/USD – SMSL, Topping) which feature the newest chips as opposed to my Onkyo’s twin Burr Brown PCM1795, which was excellent a decade ago. To my surprise, the external DACs sound so similar to the Onkyo that I cannot tell any difference. My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Dee

Welcome!
I have the same experience comparing DACs, and from a measurement pov it is not surprising really since measurements show that DACs actually had the potential to be audibly transparent decades ago.
I made a comparison 10 years ago with DACs up to £14,000 and level matched they all sounded so similar I could not reliably tell which was playing.
This meant, to me, that even if there was a difference it was so tiny it was of zero consequence.
I now use amps with the DAC built in and have had zero indication there is any audible loss from doing so and it is much neater.

 

[BDWoody]

My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

Welcome!

I'd bet the differences are too minute to note.

Good for you for questioning the 'common wisdom' out there. You've come to the right place, and your instincts are spot on.

Keep reading... You'll like it here.

 

[M00ndancer]

Dear fellow audio scientists,

I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues.

Welcome to ASR!

 

[FeddyLost]

Both reasons and at least one more
1) most of well-done modern converters are good enough to suppose they are indistinguishable in typical home scenario
2) unless your following playback chain is clear as good studio control room (including all measurable parameters) your ability to resolve differences is limited by playback chain and room.
For example, typical SNR in lows for home listening in apartments is just around 45 Db (90 Db@LP and 45-50 DB of noise).
3) it also depends on music material, hearing capabilities and hearing competences (curious consumer vs performing conductor/music teacher)
And I didn't mention digital processing and transmitting in digital domain.

 

[Harmonie]

+1
The dac is not your source, the music it converts is.
So what kind of music, dynamics aso is it that you listen to.
The speakers certainly made the major part of the difference.

I sometime wonder if I can really hear a difference to my >25 year old dac !

 

[aeroborne]

Wow! Many thanks for the feedback! I was not expecting to get such a uniformity in your opinions.

I do like various kinds of music – although in most situations I enjoy 60s-70s RnB, Jazz, and most vocal-pronounced songs. I own a lot of that music in CD and HiRes quality, so I assume the signal that reaches the asynchronous DAC over USB connection is as good as it gets.

My experience with DACs is somewhat different: Five years ago I was using a low-end integrated Onkyo (9030 or so). When I heard my current pre-amp (the P-3000R) the difference was striking and there was no way back. However, a couple of years later, newer DACs seem to offer so much more "performance" that I am somewhat disappointed I could not hear it.

 

[Chromatischism]

I have heard very small differences using the same DAC but changing the filter type (slow, sharp, etc). But it's hard - it takes a lot of concentration and replaying the same passages over and over and over....basically, I would never hear any difference in actual music listening. It's not like a tonality change that is obvious. I suspect that some DACs sound very slightly different because of these kinds of implementations, so when you can't change the settings you're none the wiser as to why it's different. However, you have to hear them back to back to back to even know. There is no way a reviewer who spent days or weeks or months between DACs could tell you that there was a difference. I wouldn't believe any who made such claims.

The DAC is the last thing I consider in my audio systems.

 

[BillG]

Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

There are high end DACs where you'd definitely hear a difference. However, they start at $15,000USD - I'm looking at you, Total DAC - and spray so much distortion and noise over the signal that it should be sold as effects processors instead...

 

[egellings]

Likelihood is that the DACs are all pretty much dead flat in frequency response and have very low distortion & noise, so I would be hard pressed to hear a difference in them. Once measurements get very good, then getting better does not necessarily translate into better sound quality.

 

[win]

Dear fellow audio scientists,

I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues. I have a short question, which is both fundamental and specific so I would love to hear what you think.

I have listened to a couple of decent speakers in the sub 5k Euro range (such as ATC SMC40, KEF R700, Heco Celan 9). I just replaced my KEF R500 with Heco Elementa (Similar to Celan 7 I was told), as I find them way may more resolving in the mid and upper register (500 Hz and up). It looks like this is not specific to my chain, which comprises a RaspberryPi with Volumio -> Onkyo P3000R -> Onkyo M-5000R. In my case, I assume the lower end is amplified with some loss of detail. However, I am in love with the looks of the M-5000R and I am not looking for a replacement.

I have been testing a few budget but well reviewed DACs (up to 500 Euro/USD – SMSL, Topping) which feature the newest chips as opposed to my Onkyo’s twin Burr Brown PCM1795, which was excellent a decade ago. To my surprise, the external DACs sound so similar to the Onkyo that I cannot tell any difference. My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Dee

In 2020 the DA conversion is a completely solved problem.

it's now about features and aesthetics ONLY.

I got my d90 because it had a shitload of input options. Now it is exclusively fed a 96khz sample rate AES EBU input from my SHD studio.

 

[win]

There are high end DACs where you'd definitely hear a difference. However, they start at $15,000USD - I'm looking at you, Total DAC - and spray so much distortion and noise over the signal that it should be sold as effects processors instead...

Almost had me in the first half ngl

 

[MrHifiTunes]

I have heard very small differences using the same DAC but changing the filter type (slow, sharp, etc). But it's hard - it takes a lot of concentration and replaying the same passages over and over and over....basically, I would never hear any difference in actual music listening. It's not like a tonality change that is obvious. I suspect that some DACs sound very slightly different because of these kinds of implementations, so when you can't change the settings you're none the wiser as to why it's different. However, you have to hear them back to back to back to even know. There is no way a reviewer who spent days or weeks or months between DACs could tell you that there was a difference. I wouldn't believe any who made such claims.

The DAC is the last thing I consider in my audio systems.

Some people can capture those 'small differences'better then others. eg, I know some musicians who can tell if a stradivarius violin or other brand is playing.
Some systems can become too detailed and becoming unpleasant for your ears. That's for those who listen to the óverall picture' Those looking for a needle in a haystack may actually like it. You need to tune your system to your taste. Don't strive to the ultimate realistic system because it doesn't exist (yet).

 

[M00ndancer]

Some people can capture those 'small differences'better then others. eg, I know some musicians who can tell if a stradivarius violin or other brand is playing.
Some systems can become too detailed and becoming unpleasant for your ears. That's for those who listen to the óverall picture' Those looking for a needle in a haystack may actually like it. You need to tune your system to your taste. Don't strive to the ultimate realistic system because it doesn't exist (yet).

That's why EQ exists.

 

[wjc]

Hello aeroborne,

My advice is to look for AKM DACs for the type of music you are listening to. Pair it with a good preamp + amplifier. The stereo imaging will be much improved over your current AVR. I have a AKM4497 in my integrated and it sounds worlds apart than my "el cheapo" Marantz AVR.

 

[Chromatischism]

Hello aeroborne,

My advice is to look for AKM DACs for the type of music you are listening to. Pair it with a good preamp + amplifier. The stereo imaging will be much improved over your current AVR. I have a AKM4497 in my integrated and it sounds worlds apart than my "el cheapo" Marantz AVR.

Unless the AVR DAC exhibits a significant channel imbalance, I fail to see how there would be any difference in imaging, which is a product of speaker neutrality, radiation pattern consistency over the frequency spectrum, speaker setup/room acoustics, and program material.

Can you tell us how the DAC would improve imaging?

 

[maxxevv]

Some people can capture those 'small differences'better then others. eg, I know some musicians who can tell if a stradivarius violin or other brand is playing.

I'm no musician though I listen to a lot of classical violin. Its possible to pick up the tonality differences of the top end violins especially if its a well known artiste who owns more than 1 of them and you have heard them being played before. Example would be Sarah Chang's 1717 Guarneri del Gesu is uniquely different from her other violins in terms of tone and she uses it for particular pieces that the violin brings the best of.

But blind listening without context, it would be extremely difficult , if not impossible as different Stradivarius and Guarneri violins do have different tone characteristics as many were made decades apart.

 

[MrHifiTunes]

I'm no musician though I listen to a lot of classical violin. Its possible to pick up the tonality differences of the top end violins especially if its a well known artiste who owns more than 1 of them and you have heard them being played before. Example would be Sarah Chang's 1717 Guarneri del Gesu is uniquely different from her other violins in terms of tone and she uses it for particular pieces that the violin brings the best of.

But blind listening without context, it would be extremely difficult , if not impossible as different Stradivarius and Guarneri violins do have different tone characteristics as many were made decades apart.

We did a blind test. 4 musicians and 4 violins. First he played the Stradivarius to memorise the sound. Then he could pick it each time during the test. None of us were able to do that.
We listen with our brain. This can be trained to better hear those differences in the sound.

 

[andreasmaaan]

We did a blind test. 4 musicians and 4 violins. First he played the Stradivarius to memorise the sound. Then he could pick it each time during the test. None of us were able to do that.
We listen with our brain. This can be trained to better hear those differences in the sound.

It's true that thresholds of audibility for certain distortions or differences can be lowered with experience and especially with training, but there are nevertheless hard physiological limits beyond which no amount of training or experience will help.