Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[staticV3]

R2R DACs are like mechanical watches.

Cheap ones are garbage, ludicrously expensive ones can be surprisingly accurate, but anyone claiming their Grand Seiko is more accurate than some G-Shock Quartz watch is a clown in my book.

You buy them for their novelty or because you appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them. Not because they're better at telling the time.

You buy R2R DACs for their novelty or because you appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them. Not because they're better at turning Digital into Analog.

Anyone who claims they do hasn't done their research.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

You buy R2R DACs for their novelty or because you appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them. Not because they're better at turning Digital into Analog.

Nicely put.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

It is just a question of waiting for that alien first contact, they will be able to explain why dacs sound different, then again they may not like music.
Keith

Oh, don't worry .... they like music!

Jim

 

[BDWoody]

This site is well known for saying that a €100 topping Dac is in no way inferior to a €3000 R2R Dac

It's more that the actual fidelity of the signal isn't going to be better, and in almost all cases the R2R DAC will include more noise and distortion so it will be a lower fidelity result. That said, assuming the R2R DAC isn't complete trash, it is unlikely those differences could be heard by anyone under anything close to normal conditions. The non-normal conditions would be using extreme gain riding to identify different noise levels during transitions for example, but if people are claiming that it must be that they like that 'voicing' or something similar there's no evidence to support that.

Well educated people can often overestimate their competencies in other areas, such as psychoacoustics.

 

[Killingbeans]

Putting those people aside, there are a few that have technical knowledge and engineering degrees who can be categorized as credible.

I think most of the people who design the new wave of R2R DACs have technical knowledge and engineering degrees.

But they are only human. Nothing stops them from putting on rose tinted glasses.

A few years back I was extremely interested in the technology and looked at a lot of products. One thing they all have in common is that the designers never have a credible explanation of why their designs would be better at the DA conversion. It always seems to be based on either wishful conjecture and/or an idea of some "magical unknown".

My personal conclusion is that the romantic notion of "technology of yore" gets the imagination going, and combined with the idea of an array of resistors being "more analogue", it makes people hear all kinds of things that aren't really there.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I am in no way taking sides on this issue, but I think the debate is still open, and I am not ready to part with 2 or 3 thousand euros until I know more.

The only "more" that you need to know will be obvious in a blind test. Either you will hear a difference or you won't. If you want to be extra scrupulous, do an ABX blind test, against a unit well-known as a reference here. That may control your bias favoring the 2-to-3-thousand-euros unit.

To my mind, there are only two reason to purchase an expensive DAC:

1) It sounds better.
The only way you can find this out is a controlled blind test. Until then, everything is just sales crap, opinion, supposition and bias ... and bias ... and bias.

2) It is more reliable.
I myself am concerned about reliability, but it's an issue that defies all attempts at prediction, especially over a 20-year span of time. If you're really worried about it, buy two or three 100-euro DACs instead of the 2-or-3-thousand-euro DACS, and if something does go wrong, you'll have backups and still be huge amounts of money ahead.
Use the savings to buy music files, room treatment or streaming services.

Jim

 

[Vincent Kars]

If you want to try R2R, have a look here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/denafrips-ares-ii-usb-r2r-dac-review.11166/
Affordable and it even measures quite good.

 

[Bridges]

The only "more" that you need to know will be obvious in a blind test. Either you will hear a difference or you won't. If you want to be extra scrupulous, do an ABX blind test, against a unit well-known as a reference here. That may control your bias favoring the 2-to-3-thousand-euros unit.

To my mind, there are only two reason to purchase an expensive DAC:

1) It sounds better.
The only way you can find this out is a controlled blind test. Until then, everything is just sales crap, opinion, supposition and bias ... and bias ... and bias.

2) It is more reliable.
I myself am concerned about reliability, but it's an issue that defies all attempts at prediction, especially over a 20-year span of time. If you're really worried about it, buy two or three 100-euro DACs instead of the 2-or-3-thousand-euro DACS, and if something does go wrong, you'll have backups and still be huge amounts of money ahead.
Use the savings to buy music files, room treatment or streaming services.

Jim

Of course I would like to do a blind test, but no one here Europe is going to offer to do that, and I am not competent enough to do that.

 

[DSJR]

Forums for subjectivist 'audiophiles' are funny things (should I include ALL forums in this?), with gear becoming fashionable for a while and then interest moves on. In UK audio forums I used to be a regular on, the old Philips TDA1541 chipset (with separate filter chip) was king, the 'Crown' versions revered (even though an engineer well versed with this chipset saying to me the digital filter is what really influenced it's 'sound' at the time, assuming there was one) and so on. Attention then moved on to non oversampling and what I think were called 'Ladder Dacs' at one point, which I think translates here a bit to R2R? My interest in tech over th e music kind of started to fizzle out after 'Bitstream,' this latter sounding quite gentle and 'analogue' at first but then all but indistinguishable from other technologies in later products I heard. earlier ESS Sabre dacs were the next big thing with a notorious? designer (John Westlake?) who 'did' a few odd but interesting things and then jumped ship from the company he was with, leaving them to try to reverse-engineer what he'd done and the products using these chips being found on forums to be 'bright and shiny' sounding, which wasn't always liked...

The above is just my limited take on it all and THANK HEAVENS for ASR and other trusted sites which have helped me and others dig through the ignnorant hearsay-based bullsh*t and get to some proper truths about dacs using modern technology.

I'm sure the Denafrips and new top model 'sorted' Schiit Iggy (MIB) dacs are good 'sounding,' but better to the ears than a cheapo SMSL or Topping, let alone a standard Schiit Modi in current form (assuming the listener didn't know which box was being used)?

Just sayin' loik.........

 

[Lasker]

I love this forum, but I have a question... to write here I have to think that all the DAC with a sinad over 110db sound the same?
Any time that people ask here for listening impressions are crucified.
.....
Personally six month ago returned a DAC more expensive than my Sanskrith mk3, costing two and a half the prices, but to me unlisteanable and It measured well, more then the sanskrith ( listening It with exactly same gear (Adam))

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Of course I would like to do a blind test, but no one here Europe is going to offer to do that, and I am not competent enough to do that.

I see.
Do you perhaps have a bunch of techie-type friends who could help you? They might be willing to do it just out of interest in the process, more so than the outcome. It takes patience and care, but you don't need to be a rocket scientist.
The method is here:

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

 

[fpitas]

Since we're doing this again (and again, and again, and...)

 

[Zensō]

Putting those people aside, there are a few that have technical knowledge and engineering degrees who can be categorized as credible.

Having technical knowledge and an engineering degree in no way frees one from the tyranny of expectation bias. It has nothing to do with credibility.

What We Hear

FIRST SOME UPDATES: This is a promising sign. I’ve managed to publish another article in less than a week and it’s a big one! Since last wee...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

 

[CleanSound]

I love this forum, but I have a question... to write here I have to think that all the DAC with a sinad over 110db sound the same?
Any time that people ask here for listening impressions are crucified.
.....
Personally six month ago returned a DAC more expensive than my Sanskrith mk3, costing two and a half the prices, but to me unlisteanable and It measured well, more then the sanskrith ( listening It with exactly same gear (Adam))

This debate won't die. This is what I would suggest, have someone administer a blind ABX test and make sure it's level matched using a multimeter on the amp. If you can tell the difference, then you do you.

 

[Bridges]

Forums for subjectivist 'audiophiles' are funny things (should I include ALL forums in this?), with gear becoming fashionable for a while and then interest moves on. In UK audio forums I used to be a regular on, the old Philips TDA1541 chipset (with separate filter chip) was king, the 'Crown' versions revered (even though an engineer well versed with this chipset saying to me the digital filter is what really influenced it's 'sound' at the time, assuming there was one) and so on. Attention then moved on to non oversampling and what I think were called 'Ladder Dacs' at one point, which I think translates here a bit to R2R? My interest in tech over th e music kind of started to fizzle out after 'Bitstream,' this latter sounding quite gentle and 'analogue' at first but then all but indistinguishable from other technologies in later products I heard. earlier ESS Sabre dacs were the next big thing with a notorious? designer (John Westlake?) who 'did' a few odd but interesting things and then jumped ship from the company he was with, leaving them to try to reverse-engineer what he'd done and the products using these chips being found on forums to be 'bright and shiny' sounding, which wasn't always liked...

The above is just my limited take on it all and THANK HEAVENS for ASR and other trusted sites which have helped me and others dig through the ignnorant hearsay-based bullsh*t and get to some proper truths about dacs using modern technology.

I'm sure the Denafrips and new top model 'sorted' Schiit Iggy (MIB) dacs are good 'sounding,' but better to the ears than a cheapo SMSL or Topping, let alone a standard Schiit Modi in current form (assuming the listener didn't know which box was being used)?

Just sayin' loik.........

Just a bit of an over statement on the Schiit Modi. if I may, I was an early buyer of this Dac, than went on to other Dacs I kept most of them and some times re-use them, The only one I did not keep is the Modi: Lack of clarity, lack of dynamics, it just a better sound card than the ones on windows computers.

 

[Bridges]

R2R DACs are like mechanical watches.

Cheap ones are garbage, ludicrously expensive ones can be surprisingly accurate, but anyone claiming their Grand Seiko is more accurate than some G-Shock Quartz watch is a clown in my book.

You buy them for their novelty or because you appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them. Not because they're better at telling the time.

You buy R2R DACs for their novelty or because you appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into them. Not because they're better at turning Digital into Analog.

Anyone who claims they do hasn't done their research.

I like the analogy, in fact a Swatch is more accurate than a Rolex.

 

[Bridges]

It's more that the actual fidelity of the signal isn't going to be better, and in almost all cases the R2R DAC will include more noise and distortion so it will be a lower fidelity result. That said, assuming the R2R DAC isn't complete trash, it is unlikely those differences could be heard by anyone under anything close to normal conditions. The non-normal conditions would be using extreme gain riding to identify different noise levels during transitions for example, but if people are claiming that it must be that they like that 'voicing' or something similar there's no evidence to support that.

Well educated people can often overestimate their competencies in other areas, such as psychoacoustics.

I'll buy that, but don't the analog output and filters matter at all?

 

[Purité Audio]

Unsighted comparisons aren’t that arduous but obviously you need the two components to be tested, a milli volt meter and a signal generator oh and someone to switch inputs.
First time I compared unsighted a hugely expensive dac Weiss Medea and a Benchmark I really found it hard to believe I couldn’t hear a difference, now that I understand they were both decent measuring components and there should be no reason why they would sound different.
Keith

 

[staticV3]

I love this forum, but I have a question... to write here I have to think that all the DAC with a sinad over 110db sound the same?

Absolutely not. ASR does not police your thoughts.

However, most people here will outright dismiss your listening impressions between two nearly identical pieces of equipment like DACs or Amps, if they came about in a sighted, uncontrolled comparison.

That's because reserch has shown these types of comparisons to be fundamentally flawed and extremely unreliable. They're simply unfit as the basis for a meaningful discussion.

We will, however, be very interested in your impressions when the comparison was performed with the appropriate controls in place

 

[DSJR]

Just a bit of an over statement on the Schiit Modi. if I may, I was an early buyer of this Dac, than went on to other Dacs I kept most of them and some times re-use them, The only one I did not keep is the Modi: Lack of clarity, lack of dynamics, it just a better sound card than the ones on windows computers.

I was talking the current Modi version, after they sorted the tech out on it...