Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing?

[Mart68]

The capacitor was actually faulty in that Denon though.

I don't know enough to contradict what you're saying, it sounds plausible.

 

[SIY]

Denon AVR-X6700H Home Theater AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X6700H "8k" 11.2 channel Audio/Video Receiver. It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $2,499 on Amazon with free shipping. AVRs look the same these days and the AVR-X6700H is no exception: Inside though, is quite...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Vs

Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated)

This is an updated review of the Denon AVR-X6700H. I tested an early production 6700H a few weeks ago and found lower than expected performance. Denon Engineering traced this to a faulty capacitor( or capacitors) used in the initial run of this AVR. I requested an updated unit which the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Which was 87 dB SINAD vs 100 dB due to a capacitor, and that delta might result in audible differences under some conditions. (With the idea that SINAD is a proxy for overall performance).
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What is sort of crazy to me is that capacitors can be made with “+80%/-20%” tolerances. Likewise, I doubt the manufacturer guarantees 100% compliance. They probably do sampling to ensure 99% of products fall within that range but if it falls out, you get your money back etc.

Nichicon audio grade capacitors are +/— 20%.

Mundorf has stuff that they rate as +/- 3%,

Mundorf classic MCAP capacitors

Mundorf classic MCAP capacitors

www.lautsprecher-shop.de

Smarter people than me can explain how big of a difference is, but I do know that if you have a crossover, a swing of 20% or even 80% should change the sound.

So, while the same capacitor values may sound identical, it is plausible that better capacitors just come closer to the schematic goal.

@restorer-john @SIY — any comments on how variable real capacitors are? Impact?

Electrolytics can have a very wide tolerance, but are typically used in positions where it's not horribly critical. As well, the bipolar electrolytics commonly used in crossovers will be 10% or so, less than the tolerance of the drivers.

 

[DSJR]

The capacitor was actually faulty in that Denon though.

I don't know enough to contradict what you're saying, it sounds plausible.

I think where electronics is concerned, it's probably clipping performance and sometimes output impedance reacting with a speaker load, plus of course, vinyl lovers hearing different RIAA eq curves, As a UK bod, you must remember the A&R A60 and Alpha, together with Cyrus One and Two, all popular on the UK used market and all with severe RIAA rolloffs in bass response below 80Hz or so. Compare with another classic, the NAD 3030 models, which had an RIAA bass 1dB up at 30Hz and rolling off below 20Hz...

As for changing caps and so on, *when newly fitted,* I seemed to feel (or imagine) that FG caps 'sounded' slightly crisper than the caps taken out, but you know, within a few hours, the modified units 'sounded' the same as I remembered them before.. These days I feel I've moved on (hopefully) but still get into arguments with arch subjectivists who 'only' trust their ears and accuse me of listening to test tones rather than music... I've just had to all but walk away from another tiny forum in an attempt to keep the peace (the forum owner loves the Lounge Audio phono stage that does weird things to the response of a cartridge depending on level).

 

[Killingbeans]

What is sort of crazy to me is that capacitors can be made with “+80%/-20%” tolerances.

It's just one of the downsides of electrolytic capacitors. If they didn't have the advantage of a small physical size (and price) for a large capacitance value, nobody in their right mind would be using them for anything.

 

[SIY]

What is sort of crazy to me is that capacitors can be made with “+80%/-20%” tolerances.

Also... that's usually power supply electrolytics where this is truly non-critical.

 

[GXAlan]

Electrolytics can have a very wide tolerance, but are typically used in positions where it's not horribly critical. As well, the bipolar electrolytics commonly used in crossovers will be 10% or so, less than the tolerance of the drivers.

What are typical tolerances for drivers?

As a partial off topic, I picked up an old pair of Roger’s Ls3/5a and roughly did a sweep in different parts of my room/shelf to make sure they were aging similarly. I thought the matching was excellent given my minimal attention to detail for same location of speaker/mic other than using a piece of paper to estimate 8.5” away from the enclosure

 

[SIY]

What are typical tolerances for drivers?

As a partial off topic, I picked up an old pair of Roger’s Ls3/5a and roughly did a sweep in different parts of my room/shelf to make sure they were aging similarly. I thought the matching was excellent given my minimal attention to detail for same location of speaker/mic other than using a piece of paper to estimate 8.5” away from the enclosure

View attachment 308175

Rogers was very good at driver selection and crossover tuning to meet BBC standards. Fs can vary 10-20%, Vas maybe 40%, Qts likewise 30-40% driver to driver.

 

[presence]

I'm a mastering engineer and I have tested between RME adi-2 and RNHP. They are complitely different animals.

RME is ultra clean power, straight what input is, someone could say sterile and dynamically flat. RNHP is like a compressor. It change the dynamics of sound, but not in a bad way, similar to Neve's preamps. If one cannot hear the difference, one has wrong career. RNHP sound colored but is well balaced, when RME can be a bit confusing, because it reveal (too much perhaps) details.

So, Neve's aim with RNHP is to give an engineer better focus to sound I guess to help with mixing/mastering process, which it does well.

Sound is not just a couple of measurements out there, but they do give confidence. In the end in professional level sound is what you hear, feel and sense.

 

[Doodski]

I'm a mastering engineer and I have tested between RME adi-2 and RNHP. They are complitely different animals.

RME is ultra clean power, straight what input is, someone could say sterile and dynamically flat. RNHP is like a compressor. It change the dynamics of sound, but not in a bad way, similar to Neve's preamps. If one cannot hear the difference, one has wrong career. RNHP sound colored but is well balaced, when RME can be a bit confusing, because it reveal (too much perhaps) details.

So, Neve's aim with RNHP is to give an engineer better focus to sound I guess to help with mixing/mastering process, which it does well.

Sound is not just a couple of measurements out there, but they do give confidence. In the end in professional level sound is what you hear, feel and sense.

So you use a effects box to master stuff? That seems a bit drastic when the option for linear signal processing is available.

 

[YSC]

I'm a mastering engineer and I have tested between RME adi-2 and RNHP. They are complitely different animals.

RME is ultra clean power, straight what input is, someone could say sterile and dynamically flat. RNHP is like a compressor. It change the dynamics of sound, but not in a bad way, similar to Neve's preamps. If one cannot hear the difference, one has wrong career. RNHP sound colored but is well balaced, when RME can be a bit confusing, because it reveal (too much perhaps) details.

So, Neve's aim with RNHP is to give an engineer better focus to sound I guess to help with mixing/mastering process, which it does well.

Sound is not just a couple of measurements out there, but they do give confidence. In the end in professional level sound is what you hear, feel and sense.

When both amps do not distort the FR significantly and making up stuffs, please explain how it would sound different…
And simple question: Neve is an engineer, if sound isn’t represented by the measurements or calculations, please explain how he designed the amp and mixer etc. to have the same sound signature….

 

[kemmler3D]

Full power square wave test. Im still waiting for the mechanism. It looks like slewing, high frequency full power distortion but im guessing, Im not a tube guy. The reason I wonder is that someone said this Amp was "voiced" like that. Than either the mechanism is known and tweaked or by trial and error, which seems ridiculous. Or there is no voicing and they got what they got and the rest is marketing BS. Voicing by reducing the slew rate is one of the dumbest thing ive heard.

Consider the fact that a good variety of analog studio effects were designed well before DSP came on the scene, including compressors / expanders, including ones built on tubes. The idea that engineers couldn't figure out how to design specific, similar effects in amps on purpose is pretty strange.

I'm not saying they did that in this case, but it's way beyond possible to do so. Fancy analog compressor / expanders existed decades ago.

 

[audiofooled]

I think most people who spend long enough tweaking sound, whether it be for stage, mixing, engineering, or musicians... eventually run into this. I had it happen at least a couple times while voicing headphones/speakers... tweaking an EQ band, thinking the audible difference was weirdly small... until I realized it was disabled entirely.

Once you've "heard a ghost" like that, you realize the brain can play as many tricks as it likes, and you'd better look for measurements when you hear something that's less than totally obvious.

I think for the most part selective attention is playing the tricks in processing both visual and audible information:

Draw your own conclusions, but if we are unaware of this when listening to "audible" differences in cables, we may think we hear some detail when switching to another cable that was there all along, just went unnoticed. There are just people out there who are unwilling to accept this...

 

[Mean & Green]

[emphasis added] That's too bad; lots of people are able to do so depending, of course, on the two amplifiers in question. Perhaps consult an audiologist.

I think you’re on the wrong forum.

 

[Hayabusa]

I think you’re on the wrong forum.

Why?

 

[Mart68]

Why?

Quoting from the Audiophile Rainbow.

Let's remind ourselves of what's in there:


System not resolving enough

System not expensive enough

lack of listening experience

Listening for the wrong things

Not listening for the right things

You must be deaf

You must have never done a comparison

Respected professional reviewers all hear a difference

All those people can't be wrong

It costs a lot more, of course it's better!

You need to move up to the £XXXX price bracket to get an audible improvement

I don't need to blind test, I trust my ears

X has been in the audio industry for 30 years how can you say he's wrong?

Measurements won't tell you anything about how something sounds

Everything matters

 

[Blumlein 88]

Quoting from the Audiophile Rainbow.

Let's remind ourselves of what's in there:


System not resolving enough

System not expensive enough

lack of listening experience

Listening for the wrong things

Not listening for the right things

You must be deaf

You must have never done a comparison

Respected professional reviewers all hear a difference

All those people can't be wrong

It costs a lot more, of course it's better!

You need to move up to the £XXXX price bracket to get an audible improvement

I don't need to blind test, I trust my ears

X has been in the audio industry for 30 years how can you say he's wrong?

Measurements won't tell you anything about how something sounds

Everything matters

I think we should amend one thing. They say everything matters of course. Yet almost religiously refuse to acknowledge you need matched levels. So apparently volume DOES NOT MATTER. Just another logical perversion.

Everything matters except volume then.

 

[Mart68]

I think we should amend one thing. They say everything matters of course. Yet almost religiously refuse to acknowledge you need matched levels. So apparently volume DOES NOT MATTER. Just another logical perversion.

Everything matters except volume then.

yes - I should probably change 'I don't need to blind test' to 'I don't need to do controlled testing' which would then encompass that.

Although I have noted that many think that if they have not adjusted the volume dial between swaps that means the levels must be matched.

'Everything matters' is more of a reference to, say, being concerned about the power supply to the router, or whether the DAC is sat on a glass or a wooden shelf.

 

[fpitas]

On the bright side, I'm glad Ralph obsesses about this stuff. A good designer should.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Damn. That's uncalled for.

My apology; gratuitous on my part.

However the fact remains the many people can hear differences between amp 'A' and amp 'B' -- granted, not necessarily between amp 'A' and amp 'C'. What I sick & tired of is being told over & over by denialists that it's all my imagination.

 

[Killingbeans]

They aren't saying that it is your imagination. Just that there's a very high risk of it. There's also a high risk of an actual audible difference to be caused by a faulty comparison. For instance, a lack of proper level matching.